Actually it may matter. My grandfather lost his Italian citizenship BECAUSE he became an American citizen.
The question is whether my father also did. Just like the US can't tell Italy whether my father is or is not an Italian citizen, Italy can't tell the US he is or is not an American citizen.
My father received a letter from immigration in 1996 stating his green card expired and he risked deportation. Clearly, the US did not recognize him as a citizen then.
Rare case
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The green card is further proof that the US did not consider your father to have naturalized before 1992, and the determination of when he naturalized is made solely by the US.
Generally, it is considerably more difficult to apply when you are not in possession of a naturalization certificate, but the naturalization certificate trumps everything.
For example, my grandfather came to the US at the age of 16 and naturalized when he was 29. Because I had his naturalization records, the consulate readily accepted that he lost his Italian citizenship at age 29. Even though he came to the US as a minor, I was not asked to prove the status of HIS father so that they could eliminate the possibility of an earlier naturalization. His naturalization certificate accompanied by his Italian birth certificate was sufficient. After all, you can only naturalize once.
I doubt your father, and you, will have any difficulty.
Generally, it is considerably more difficult to apply when you are not in possession of a naturalization certificate, but the naturalization certificate trumps everything.
For example, my grandfather came to the US at the age of 16 and naturalized when he was 29. Because I had his naturalization records, the consulate readily accepted that he lost his Italian citizenship at age 29. Even though he came to the US as a minor, I was not asked to prove the status of HIS father so that they could eliminate the possibility of an earlier naturalization. His naturalization certificate accompanied by his Italian birth certificate was sufficient. After all, you can only naturalize once.
I doubt your father, and you, will have any difficulty.
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Here is the sequence of events which culminated in Naturalization for my grand-father who traveled ALONE in 1910 at the age of 16:
1. Filed Declaration of Intention in 1917 at age 23, two years after having reached the age of majority.
2. Filed Petition for Citizenship in 1920 because at that time, he had fulfilled the requirement of having been a permanent resident of the state where he resided for five (5) years. Permanent residency of five years in the same state is still today a requirement for any immigrant seeking to naturalize in that state. Also listed on the Petition for Citizenship was all vital information about the immigrant. Name, Age, Nationality, Name and residence of parents, name of ship traveled on (in this case, The Florida), date it departed Naples (February 28, 1910) and DATE IT ARRIVED IN NEW YORK (March 13, 1910). All travel information for any immigrant who legally enters the USA is available for authorities to verify before approving a Petition for Citizenship. Marital status was also listed as Married, he having been married the same year January 1920. At the time, he had no children.
3. Took Oath of Allegiance and became Naturalized American Citizen in February 1923. By now, he was still married and had an addition to the family, my father who was born in the United States in August 1922 and who's name was listed on the final Naturalization Certificate containing a unique identification number.
This is the way ALL immigrants who naturalize on their own at the age of majority are processed and it is not any different today and was not any different in 1967 OR in 1997.
The USA simply would NOT approve for citizenship an immigrant who presented incomplete paperwork. Likewise, the Italian consulates will not approve for recognition an applicant who submits incomplete paperwork. But mler has stated previously in these forums that because there were some discrepancies on her grand-father's preliminary paperwork she only submitted his final Naturalization document to the consulate and it was accepted. I find this totally absurd.
1. Filed Declaration of Intention in 1917 at age 23, two years after having reached the age of majority.
2. Filed Petition for Citizenship in 1920 because at that time, he had fulfilled the requirement of having been a permanent resident of the state where he resided for five (5) years. Permanent residency of five years in the same state is still today a requirement for any immigrant seeking to naturalize in that state. Also listed on the Petition for Citizenship was all vital information about the immigrant. Name, Age, Nationality, Name and residence of parents, name of ship traveled on (in this case, The Florida), date it departed Naples (February 28, 1910) and DATE IT ARRIVED IN NEW YORK (March 13, 1910). All travel information for any immigrant who legally enters the USA is available for authorities to verify before approving a Petition for Citizenship. Marital status was also listed as Married, he having been married the same year January 1920. At the time, he had no children.
3. Took Oath of Allegiance and became Naturalized American Citizen in February 1923. By now, he was still married and had an addition to the family, my father who was born in the United States in August 1922 and who's name was listed on the final Naturalization Certificate containing a unique identification number.
This is the way ALL immigrants who naturalize on their own at the age of majority are processed and it is not any different today and was not any different in 1967 OR in 1997.
The USA simply would NOT approve for citizenship an immigrant who presented incomplete paperwork. Likewise, the Italian consulates will not approve for recognition an applicant who submits incomplete paperwork. But mler has stated previously in these forums that because there were some discrepancies on her grand-father's preliminary paperwork she only submitted his final Naturalization document to the consulate and it was accepted. I find this totally absurd.
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Something is starting to sound not quite right about what you're reporting here, Dfio. An immigrant in the USA does not go from having a green card in 1996 and becoming a naturalized American citizen in 1997. I know because my brother-in-law had a similar situation when his greencard expired and he was in the removal process. He wasn't able to naturalize for at least five years after being put in removal AND he had to hire an immigration attorney to get it done.Dfio wrote:
My father received a letter from immigration in 1996 stating his green card expired and he risked deportation. Clearly, the US did not recognize him as a citizen then.
Re: Rare case
You assume that ALL fact patterns are exactly the same as those you are most familiar with. My father received the letter in 1996 advising his green card expired and he was required to make an appointment at federal immigration offices asap. That does not mean that the removal process started. It could have meant the removal process will start if he failed to make an appointment.
I don't the circumstances of your brother in law and I wouldn't assume they are the same....because I don't know ALL the facts.
I don't the circumstances of your brother in law and I wouldn't assume they are the same....because I don't know ALL the facts.
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Also, these laws do change. Consider that the time period between then may have had an impact.
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Jennebet, you are reading things that are not there. I never said there were discrepancies in my grandfather's paperwork. I simply said that when I applied for citizenship, the consulate accepted my grandfather's naturalization papers as proof of naturalization date, and his naturalization papers did include his petition that showed he arrived in the US as a minor.
Despite this, the consulate did NOT ask me to prove he didn't naturalize as a minor. They were aware then, as I'm sure they are aware today, that you only naturalize one time. If you have proof of naturalization, they have no reason to suspect an earlier naturalization. It's as simple as that.
Dfio has proof of a naturalization that took place in 1997. If his father had naturalized earlier with his father, he would not have been required to have a green card to remain in this country. Nor would he have been permitted to naturalize a second time. Instead of a naturalization certificate he would have received a certificate of derivative citizenship, which showed naturalization at an earlier date.
Remember, that before 1992 Italian citizenship was lost through naturalization, whether it's naturalization as an adult or as a minor child through naturalization with a parent. In this case, the only naturalization that took place was in 1997.
Despite this, the consulate did NOT ask me to prove he didn't naturalize as a minor. They were aware then, as I'm sure they are aware today, that you only naturalize one time. If you have proof of naturalization, they have no reason to suspect an earlier naturalization. It's as simple as that.
Dfio has proof of a naturalization that took place in 1997. If his father had naturalized earlier with his father, he would not have been required to have a green card to remain in this country. Nor would he have been permitted to naturalize a second time. Instead of a naturalization certificate he would have received a certificate of derivative citizenship, which showed naturalization at an earlier date.
Remember, that before 1992 Italian citizenship was lost through naturalization, whether it's naturalization as an adult or as a minor child through naturalization with a parent. In this case, the only naturalization that took place was in 1997.
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Perhaps I should find your comments and post them. I recall specifically that you said because your grand-father's preliminary citizenship paperwork contained discrepancies, you only submitted his final act of Naturalization. Again, a consulate would never accept just this part of the package because it does not contain enough information about who this naturalized Italian immigrant is. For sure, it does NOT contain the date of arrival. The date of arrival is listed on the preliminary paperwork or Petition for Citizenship, which you said you did not submit. Of course, this is a public forum and you can say whatever you like but I, personally, have had a problem giving much credence to many of your comments on Italian citizenship based on this. Others, of course, are free to gain whatever they like from your's and any other poster's comments. That's what a discussion is all about.
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Dfio, you possibly could have avoided a lot of confusion had you told us in the posting I'm quoting here that your father had a greencard but you made no mention of it. Why did you leave out the information about the greencard in your first posting? It's apparently the key to him having been naturalized on his own at age of majority and not when he was a minor through his father.Dfio wrote:I will be applying for Italian citizenship but have received some conflicting feedback on my eligibility. Here's the facts:
-1950- father born to in Italy to Italian parents.
-1956- they emigrate to US
- 1967- grandfather naturalized
- 1973 - grandmother naturalized (father is now a married/emancipated adult)
-1980- I am born
-1997- my father naturalized. I have a copy of the certificate and it is a "certificate of naturalization." This is different from a certificate of citiZenship.
Here's the issue- Italian law apparently says if you were born in Italy and your father naturalized before 1992 and you were a minor, you also lost your Italian citizenship. That means my father lost his and so I'm ineligible. However, prior to 2000, American law stated BOTH parents had to naturalize for their minor kids to become citizens. Otherwise, the child would have to naturalize separately as adults. Obviously, my father did this in 1997 after I was born.
Am I eligible? There is a chance the consulate will get my grandfathers' records because a cousin is also applying and will need to supply them. His father was born in US so he doesn't have to worry about this legal quark. Just not sure how they will view my application after they see my grandfather'so naturalization certificate.
Re: Rare case
That is true, jennebet. On a public forum such as this, there is no way to be certain that people are honestly reporting their experiences. I have often wondered how you know so many people whose experiences seem to fit every scenario. To clarify, I never obtained and thus never submitted my grandfather's Certificate of Naturalization. Your memory is good, though. I didn't submit the Petition either because my father's birthdate was entered incorrectly. I believe this is the discrepancy you recall. Fortunately, the Consulate was willing to accept the Declaration of Intent and Oath of Allegiance in lieu of an actual Naturalization Certificate because the Oath included the date of naturalization. As an aside, I don't think the Consulate would be quite so forgiving today.
The point is that my grandfather's date of arrival was included on the Declaration (sorry not the Petition), so the Consulate knew he arrived as a minor. This was not an issue because I had evidence of his naturalization on a date after my father's birth. Once proof of naturalization is presented, there is no need to prove that a previous naturalization did not take place.
Yes, Dfio's father naturalized as an adult in 1997. He stated that in his first post.
BTW, jennebet, you are certainly welcome to post my previous application comments. You will find that I did indeed obtain citizenship with only my grandfather's birth certificate, Declaration of Intent, and Oath of Allegiance. I pulled the Petition from the NARA packet when I saw the birthdate error, and the Consulate never questioned it. I doubt, however, that my approach would be helpful today. Everything was so much easier in 2005.
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I received confirmation today that my application was approved. Melt was correct in that they determined my father was not naturalized until 1997. I just wanted to follow up in case there are others with similar fact patterns.
The "Date of Naturalization" listed on the certificate does control. People should note the "Date of Natiralization" is different than the date the certificate is issued. I hope Italian law will change to provide some clarity to these cases.
The "Date of Naturalization" listed on the certificate does control. People should note the "Date of Natiralization" is different than the date the certificate is issued. I hope Italian law will change to provide some clarity to these cases.
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Congratulations!! I'm so happy for you. Thanks for the update.
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Rare case. Congratulations. My companion's case was also "different".
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What happened with your companion's case? Did it work out? Was the fact pattern similar?
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Yes, it definitely worked out. He was recognized within six weeks. His grand-father came to US at age nine with his parents. The great-grandfather naturalized in 1913 and all of his children were listed on the naturalization certificate. By 1913, the nine year old was still a minor (age 19) but he was already married and expecting a child of his own so he was liberated from his father and unaffected by the father's naturalization and did not lose his Italian citizenship.
