Marriage records when married outside of Italy

[onslo234]

Quick question that I was unable to answer via Google:

When an Italian citizen is married in another country, (which would have occurred in Egypt around 1905 for this example) is any paperwork provided to Italy government for record keeping purposes?

Thanks all

[darkerhorse]

I've seen occasional registrations in Sicilian town records for marriage and deaths to Italian citizens occurring in the U.S. in the early 1900s.

[darkerhorse]

Usually, it's a transcription of the U.S. record made in Part II.

[onslo234]

Usually, it's a transcription of the U.S. record made in Part II.

Interesting, thank you!

[Tessa78]

Italians working or living out of the country, often wish to have civil registrations of birth, death and marriage included in their hometown. Many Italians worked in Egypt and Tunisia during the late 18th and early 19th centuries, and requested events to be recorded in their comune. As darkerhorse has mentioned, they are geneally found in Parte II of the registrations. Sometimes it can be months or years after the event depending on the date of the request and the lengthy process for approval.

Is there a record you think we might be able to help find?
If you give us the details, we would be happy to assist.

T.

[onslo234]

Italians working or living out of the country, often wish to have civil registrations of birth, death and marriage included in their hometown. Many Italians worked in Egypt and Tunisia during the late 18th and early 19th centuries, and requested events to be recorded in their comune. As darkerhorse has mentioned, they are geneally found in Parte II of the registrations. Sometimes it can be months or years after the event depending on the date of the request and the lengthy process for approval.

Is there a record you think we might be able to help find?
If you give us the details, we would be happy to assist.

T.

Supposedly, my great-grandmother was married in Cairo around 1905. Her name was Ada Malaspina (born 1881) and her hometown was Parma but she also lived for a period of time in Milan. Her husband was Russian, not an Italian citizen; I don’t know if that makes a difference.

[suanj]

To the best of my knowledge, Italians who married in North Africa, or had a child born, etc., after local registration, brought the certificate to the Italian consul, who transcribed the certificate and sent it to the Italian commune for registration and transcription in the civil record registers. This was a concern that the Italians had when they thought of returning to Italy, and therefore the stay in North Africa was momentary, for a limited period. If they then decided to stay in North Africa, then they stopped contacting the Italian Consulate for registration in Italy of civil records abroad.

I speak of North Africa because the Italians who went there were the ones who mostly turned to the Italian Consulate. While those who emigrated elsewhere only a few had the intention of returning to Italy.

As for your question, about your ancestor, who you say was from Parma, I don't know if she was born in Parma town or in some municipality in the province of Parma, I don't think her Russian husband had any intention of returning to Italy.
I don't know if they stayed in Cairo or emigrated elsewhere, it would be good to know.

HOWEVER based on my experience, if your ancestor had her marriage registered also in Parma or in some Municipality where she was born, given the slowness of communications, the registration could also be found years after 1905. BUT if when the registrar, receiving communication from the Prosecutor of the King of Italy, had to transcribe it perfectly in part II of the marriage's register and should have inserted a marriage note on the birth record of your ancestor.

But often out of laziness they didn't. You know your family history and you can imagine if they might want to go back to Italy or not. The stimulus for the registration of foreign civil records in Italy was this: the return.
Regards,
suanj

[onslo234]

To the best of my knowledge, Italians who married in North Africa, or had a child born, etc., after local registration, brought the certificate to the Italian consul, who transcribed the certificate and sent it to the Italian commune for registration and transcription in the civil record registers. This was a concern that the Italians had when they thought of returning to Italy, and therefore the stay in North Africa was momentary, for a limited period. If they then decided to stay in North Africa, then they stopped contacting the Italian Consulate for registration in Italy of civil records abroad.

I speak of North Africa because the Italians who went there were the ones who mostly turned to the Italian Consulate. While those who emigrated elsewhere only a few had the intention of returning to Italy.

As for your question, about your ancestor, who you say was from Parma, I don't know if she was born in Parma town or in some municipality in the province of Parma, I don't think her Russian husband had any intention of returning to Italy.
I don't know if they stayed in Cairo or emigrated elsewhere, it would be good to know.

HOWEVER based on my experience, if your ancestor had her marriage registered also in Parma or in some Municipality where she was born, given the slowness of communications, the registration could also be found years after 1905. BUT if when the registrar, receiving communication from the Prosecutor of the King of Italy, had to transcribe it perfectly in part II of the marriage's register and should have inserted a marriage note on the birth record of your ancestor.

But often out of laziness they didn't. You know your family history and you can imagine if they might want to go back to Italy or not. The stimulus for the registration of foreign civil records in Italy was this: the return.
Regards,
suanj

That’s very insightful, thank you!

In this case I think she most certainly intended to return to Italy at some point. She was an opera singer who was performing as part of a touring production around Europe and Northern Africa. At some point between May and December, 1904, she met her future husband who was a Russian diplomat working out of Cairo. They were supposedly married in Cairo and then she tagged along in his various travels as a diplomat (Turkey, Russia, Jerusalem, and finally to Pittsburgh, PA, USA). Now, my grandfather was supposedly born in Milan in 1909. This is why a mentioned Milan in previous post. I’d like to find this birth record but have come up empty-handed.

[onslo234]

I’ll add that the reason I am interested in finding the marriage record is because I’d love to know how my great-grandfathers Russian surname was transcribed into Italian. This might help me in locating the birth record for my grandfather (my main goal), who was born in Milan.

[Tessa78]

[/quote]

Supposedly, my great-grandmother was married in Cairo around 1905. Her name was Ada Malaspina (born 1881) and her hometown was Parma but she also lived for a period of time in Milan. Her husband was Russian, not an Italian citizen; I don’t know if that makes a difference.
[/quote]

Just for reference purposes - this is the index listing in the Diocese of Parma for the baptism/birth of Ada Malaspina on 4 July 1881 (#677)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... &cat=98253

This is the baptism entry (#677 bottom left and next page) for Ada. Full name Ada Aloysia Ida Maria.
Her parents' names and birth year, as well as her grandparents' names are stated in the record.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... &cat=98253

I’ll add that the reason I am interested in finding the marriage record is because I’d love to know how my great-grandfathers Russian surname was transcribed into Italian. This might help me in locating the birth record for my grandfather (my main goal), who was born in Milan.

What was your grandfather's surname?
In my opinion, the father's name would not have been "transcribed into Italian".

T.

[onslo234]

Supposedly, my great-grandmother was married in Cairo around 1905. Her name was Ada Malaspina (born 1881) and her hometown was Parma but she also lived for a period of time in Milan. Her husband was Russian, not an Italian citizen; I don’t know if that makes a difference.
[/quote]

Just for reference purposes - this is the index listing in the Diocese of Parma for the baptism/birth of Ada Malaspina on 4 July 1881 (#677)

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... &cat=98253

This is the baptism entry (#677 bottom left and next page) for Ada. Full name Ada Aloysia Ida Maria.
Her parents' names and birth year, as well as her grandparents' names are stated in the record.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... &cat=98253

I’ll add that the reason I am interested in finding the marriage record is because I’d love to know how my great-grandfathers Russian surname was transcribed into Italian. This might help me in locating the birth record for my grandfather (my main goal), who was born in Milan.

What was your grandfather's surname?
In my opinion, the father's name would not have been "transcribed into Italian".

T.
[/quote]

The Russian surname was чирков, which would be like “Chirkov.” My grandfathers name was Edgar Tchirkow but some of the passenger lists show his name as Jegory Czirioff. His DOB was 3/8/1909

[Tessa78]

The Russian surname was чирков, which would be like “Chirkov.” My grandfathers name was Edgar Tchirkow but some of the passenger lists show his name as Jegory Czirioff. His DOB was 3/8/1909

According to Edgar's WWII Draft card -he had a brother George. Could that have been the Jeorgy you referenced for an arrival name? (though it does state that Edgar's middle name is George)

Link to WWII card
https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-co ... cessSource

Interestingly, on his enlistment record, Edgar gives "Italy or San Marino" as birthplace...

Edgar G Tchirkow in the U.S., World War II Army Enlistment Records, 1938-1946
Name Edgar G Tchirkow
Race White
Marital Status Single, without dependents (Single)
Rank Private
Birth Year 1909
Nativity State or Country Italy or San Marino
Citizenship Citizen
Residence Allegheny, Pennsylvania
Education 3 years of high school
Civil Occupation Salesmen and sales agents, except to consumers
Enlistment Date 15 Jul 1942
Enlistment Place Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Service Number 33283777
Branch Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA
Component Selectees (Enlisted Men)
Source Civil Life
Height 66
Weight 153

For reference:
Here is the Petition for Naturalization of Edgar's father: George Vasil Tchirkow
https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-co ... 84094:2717

T.

[onslo234]

The Russian surname was чирков, which would be like “Chirkov.” My grandfathers name was Edgar Tchirkow but some of the passenger lists show his name as Jegory Czirioff. His DOB was 3/8/1909

According to Edgar's WWII Draft card -he had a brother George. Could that have been the Jeorgy you referenced for an arrival name? (though it does state that Edgar's middle name is George)

Link to WWII card
https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-co ... cessSource

Interestingly, on his enlistment record, Edgar gives "Italy or San Marino" as birthplace...

Edgar G Tchirkow in the U.S., World War II Army Enlistment Records, 1938-1946
Name Edgar G Tchirkow
Race White
Marital Status Single, without dependents (Single)
Rank Private
Birth Year 1909
Nativity State or Country Italy or San Marino
Citizenship Citizen
Residence Allegheny, Pennsylvania
Education 3 years of high school
Civil Occupation Salesmen and sales agents, except to consumers
Enlistment Date 15 Jul 1942
Enlistment Place Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
Service Number 33283777
Branch Branch Immaterial - Warrant Officers, USA
Component Selectees (Enlisted Men)
Source Civil Life
Height 66
Weight 153

For reference:
Here is the Petition for Naturalization of Edgar's father: George Vasil Tchirkow
https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-co ... 84094:2717

T.

Yes, George is Edgar's brother. According to arrival names, George was listed separately as "Jura," so "Jegory" is, in fact, referencing Edgar. It was a good thought though.