Dialect and slang of eastern Lazio

[AngelaGrace56]

I remember the word "zoccala" for rat as well, not specifically "sewer rat" though - I suppose "nu zoccalone" might be a "big rat"?

The word we used for mouse was "sorece" which is a little different from "typical".

Angela

Angela,

"Sewer rat" was more of an Americanism. Since my grandparents anchored in Detroit, Michigan, large rats were common in the alleys (where garbage was kept) & lived in the sewers underground. They were considerably fatter/bigger than the standard Norway rat, due to plentiful food sources. Therefore, the term 'zoccalone' was used to describe them, whereas 'zoccali' would be more typical Norway rats.

Okay. That makes sense. Thank you for explaining.

Where is the dialect you describe native to..? My DNA links to Campania, Abruzzo, Sicilia and Puglia in addition to Lazio. I'm sure these dialects were a combination of all of those to some extent...

The dialect we spoke was basically the Lucanian dialect which is Native to Basilicata region, so bordering Campania and Apulia. Mum would say that they spoke Saponarese, possibly because the ancient name of the town they grew up in was called Saponara. (It then became Saponara di Grumento and is now called Grumento Nova.)

Out of the regions that you have mentioned here, I would suggest that Sicilia would be the obvious odd one out. The Sicilian dialect seems to be very different from the Neapolitan dialect, which is possibily the dialect spoken in the other regions you mention? While Napoletano and Saponarese “sound” distinctly different when spoken, I don’t think that they are that much different from each other. I think that different words are used for the same thing here and there. That’s what it seemed like to me anyway. (In the community I grew up in, Saponarese and Napoletano were the two main languages spoken. Most of my friends’ parents spoke Napoletano and I never had problems understanding them that I recall, although I possibly would now.).

Angela

[MarcuccioV]

Okay. That makes sense. Thank you for explaining.


Out of the regions that you have mentioned here, I would suggest that Sicilia would be the obvious odd one out. The Sicilian dialect seems to be very different from the Neapolitan dialect, which is possibily the dialect spoken in the other regions you mention? While Napoletano and Saponarese “sound” distinctly different when spoken, I don’t think that they are that much different from each other. I think that different words are used for the same thing here and there. That’s what it seemed like to me anyway. (In the community I grew up in, Saponarese and Napoletano were the two main languages spoken. Most of my friends’ parents spoke Napoletano and I never had problems understanding them that I recall, although I possibly would now.). [/b][/i]

Angela

Zoccali was also probably used for tree rats which are slightly smaller than the usual Norway rat, but much larger than mice. That could have been the distinction as well. But "ratto" or "ratti" was NEVER used in that context, despite being closer to the English.

Interesting take on the dialects. We had family friends who were Barese and Napolitano (among others), and my aunt & her family (through marriage) were Sicilian. Whenever there was a large group together, they all seemed to communicate fine with their varying tongues.

It always amazed me when 6 Italians could sit at a dining room table having 6 DISTINCT conversations & each being able to "jump " in & out of all 6 without missing a beat.

As far as differing words, our Barese friends would often 'cut' part of the word out, as well as speak at a much faster pace. As for the Sicilian, I would notice the differences in certain words, such as paura/scandao for 'fear', or disturbo/stunadi (I assume a corruption of stonare, to sing out of tune) for 'bother'. I now use both interchangeably, depending on who I might be speaking to. I have a friend from church (in her mid 90's now) from Molise so I speak to her in our Roman dialect, which she understands better (she speaks perfect English, but loves when I talk to her in Italian)...

[AngelaGrace56]

Okay. That makes sense. Thank you for explaining.


Out of the regions that you have mentioned here, I would suggest that Sicilia would be the obvious odd one out. The Sicilian dialect seems to be very different from the Neapolitan dialect, which is possibily the dialect spoken in the other regions you mention?
Angela

What I was intending to say here was that "a variant of the Neapolitan dialect" is possibly spoken in the other regions you mention" - so not exactly the pure Neapolitan dialect, if this makes sense.


Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

As far as differing words, our Barese friends would often 'cut' part of the word out, as well as speak at a much faster pace. As for the Sicilian, I would notice the differences in certain words, such as paura/scandao for 'fear', or disturbo/stunadi (I assume a corruption of stonare, to sing out of tune) for 'bother'. I now use both interchangeably, depending on who I might be speaking to. I have a friend from church (in her mid 90's now) from Molise so I speak to her in our Roman dialect, which she understands better (she speaks perfect English, but loves when I talk to her in Italian)...

We also used the Italian word “pauro” to express fear. (It’s used in dialect as well. If there is a dialect equivalent I’ve not heard it, well that I remember anyway.)

We had a similar sounding word to the Sicilian word “scandao” that you mention. Phonetically it sounded like s(h)cande (so it started with a “sh” sound) and it was to express “scare” or “fright”.




Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

As far as differing words, our Barese friends would often 'cut' part of the word out, as well as speak at a much faster pace. As for the Sicilian, I would notice the differences in certain words, such as paura/scandao for 'fear', or disturbo/stunadi (I assume a corruption of stonare, to sing out of tune) for 'bother'. I now use both interchangeably, depending on who I might be speaking to. I have a friend from church (in her mid 90's now) from Molise so I speak to her in our Roman dialect, which she understands better (she speaks perfect English, but loves when I talk to her in Italian)...

We also used the Italian word “pauro” to express fear. (It’s used in dialect as well. If there is a dialect equivalent I’ve not heard it, well that I remember anyway.)

We had a similar sounding word to the Sicilian word “scandao” that you mention. Phonetically it sounded like s(h)cande (so it started with a “sh” sound) and it was to express “scare” or “fright”.

That's a lovely story about your friend from Molise. I bet she loves it.




Angela

[MarcuccioV]

That's a lovely story about your friend from Molise. I bet she loves it.

Angela

She does. She teaches me some of her dialect when it differs. She knows some Sicilian as well, even comments that some of our dialect words sound closer to Sicilian than hers. Her face lights up whenever we talk.

[PippoM]

Zoccali was also probably used for tree rats which are slightly smaller than the usual Norway rat, but much larger than mice. That could have been the distinction as well. But "ratto" or "ratti" was NEVER used in that context, despite being closer to the English.

Interesting take on the dialects. We had family friends who were Barese and Napolitano (among others), and my aunt & her family (through marriage) were Sicilian. Whenever there was a large group together, they all seemed to communicate fine with their varying tongues.

It always amazed me when 6 Italians could sit at a dining room table having 6 DISTINCT conversations & each being able to "jump " in & out of all 6 without missing a beat.

As far as differing words, our Barese friends would often 'cut' part of the word out, as well as speak at a much faster pace. As for the Sicilian, I would notice the differences in certain words, such as paura/scandao for 'fear', or disturbo/stunadi (I assume a corruption of stonare, to sing out of tune) for 'bother'. I now use both interchangeably, depending on who I might be speaking to. I have a friend from church (in her mid 90's now) from Molise so I speak to her in our Roman dialect, which she understands better (she speaks perfect English, but loves when I talk to her in Italian)...

I do not speak Sicilian, but read several books by Camilleri, the author of "Il Commissario Montalbano".
He uses the words "scantarsi/scantato" = "(to get) scared"
The other one (stunadi) sounds new to me. It might not be literally "bothering", but the consequence of bothering someone. I mean, in Neapolitan, when someone keeps talking and talking, we say "m'aje stunato" (you've dazed me).
I think "zoccola" does not mean a particular kind of rat, but any big rat (originally, sewer, that were the only known ones)

[MarcuccioV]

I do not speak Sicilian, but read several books by Camilleri, the author of "Il Commissario Montalbano".
He uses the words "scantarsi/scantato" = "(to get) scared"
The other one (stunadi) sounds new to me. It might not be literally "bothering", but the consequence of bothering someone. I mean, in Neapolitan, when someone keeps talking and talking, we say "m'aje stunato" (you've dazed me).
I think "zoccola" does not mean a particular kind of rat, but any big rat (originally, sewer, that were the only known ones)

Our "Sicilians" (my aunt's family from Carini near Palermo) and my BFF's family (my cousin's in-law's from Mezzojuso) both used 'stunadi' (or stunate, not sure of spelling) for disturb or bother. My grandmother would say "No me fai disturbo" while they would say "non se stunate". They would also use "stunata/stunatu" to describe someone who was an annoyance or "off", while we used "matta/matto". My Molise friend said they used "materassi" (mattressed); our Barese neighbors used what sounded like "shto-ned".

I don't know what kind of rats they may have encountered in Lazio (both grandparents emigrated at the respective ages of 19) but I'm certain there were varying sizes/types of them in the US, thereby the differentiation for the additional coda on the word...

I just find the various differences in the wording and syntax from the different areas fascinating...