Mascheroni - GGrandparents Research

[Tessa78]

Can you gentleman help me on how to proceed with my research based on the reply below?

Gentleman????

The response says that they searched in the records of marriage held by the Municipality of Cairate, for years 1880 to 1890 and found no such marriage of the people indicated...

They also state that the Civil Records begin with 1866, and so they are not able to look for the records of Angela Lavelli and Gaetano Mascheroni born in years before that. They suggest that you contact the parish priest (the address and email are provided).

They have included with the response the birth extracts of the children of Gaetano and Angela...

I think the Civil Official, Paolo Terzoni, has provided you with the "next step"

Help with letters to Parish Priest...
http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/pearlsofwi ... rishpriest


T.

[MascheroniBR]

Can you gentleman help me on how to proceed with my research based on the reply below?

Gentleman????

My bad Tessa!!! Forgive my bad english!!

The response says that they searched in the records of marriage held by the Municipality of Cairate, for years 1880 to 1890 and found no such marriage of the people indicated...

They also state that the Civil Records begin with 1866, and so they are not able to look for the records of Angela Lavelli and Gaetano Mascheroni born in years before that. They suggest that you contact the parish priest (the address and email are provided).

They have included with the response the birth extracts of the children of Gaetano and Angela...

I think the Civil Official, Paolo Terzoni, has provided you with the "next step"

Help with letters to Parish Priest...
http://www.angelfire.com/ok3/pearlsofwi ... rishpriest


T.

Tessa, Thanks again for your support! I dont have any idea of when my GGparents got married... I estimated 1880-1890 but it could be earlier!

I'll write back to Paolo thanking him for the help, it is the least I can do! The attachments didnt come with the message, I'll mention that as well!

Off to the next step... this research is becoming interesting!!

[Tessa78]

Non ti preoccupare!!!

Good luck in your search!

T.

[MascheroniBR]

Tessa!! I managed to get a quick response via e-mail by the responsible for the Parish files!!

Egregio signor Mascheroni,
sono la responsabile dell’archivio della Parrocchia di Cairate.
Le scrivo per comunicarle che ho trovato notizie dei suoi bisnonni nei nostri registri.
La ricerca è stata complicata dal fatto che il suo bisnonno non si chiamava Gaetano, ma Francesco Gaetano .
All’ufficio anagrafe del comune non hanno trovato il matrimonio perché compariva solo il nome Francesco
Come Parrocchia però non possiamo rilasciare l’atto di nascita, ma solo il certificato di Battesimo e di Matrimonio.
Ho provveduto quindi a spedirle il certificato di battesimo di Mascheroni Francesco Gaetano e il certificato di Matrimonio di Mascheroni Francesco Gaetano e Lavelli Angela Maria.
Non abbiamo il certificato di battesimo della sua bisnonna Lavelli Angela Maria, perché è nata a Brivio in provincia di Lecco.
Se ha bisogno anche di questo certificato deve rivolgersi al comune o alla Parrocchia di Brivio.
Se ha bisogno di altri chiarimenti mi contatti a questo indirizzo.

Distinti saluti
Ettorina Scandroglio

From what i could understand (google! ), the search was difficult because my GGFather actually was called Francesco Gaetano.

They have birth records for my GGfather, but are not allowed to issue?
They can provide marriage and baptism records for my GGfather.
My GGmother was born in Brivio and I should contact its Parish Priest.

Please see if I missed any important information!
I would be most gratefull if you suggest me how can I reply thanking and asking the certificates he was able to find! I really would like the birth record, but it seems they wont issue!

[liviomoreno]

From what i could understand (google! ), the search was difficult because my GGFather actually was called Francesco Gaetano. Correct

They have birth records for my GGfather, but are not allowed to issue? They cannot issue birth records for your GGfather, because they only have baptism and marriage records
They can provide marriage and baptism records for my GGfather. They already mailed them to you, you should receive them shortly...
My GGmother was born in Brivio and I should contact its Parish Priest. and/or the related Comune

[MascheroniBR]

From what i could understand (google! ), the search was difficult because my GGFather actually was called Francesco Gaetano. Correct

They have birth records for my GGfather, but are not allowed to issue? They cannot issue birth records for your GGfather, because they only have baptism and marriage records
They can provide marriage and baptism records for my GGfather. They already mailed them to you, you should receive them shortly...
My GGmother was born in Brivio and I should contact its Parish Priest. and/or the related Comune

Thank you very much my friend!!

In fact, I informed the Parish my address on my original message, but I didn't expect them to send me anything in the first place!! That's a great surprise!!
I'll contribute to the Parish somehow.

I Hope it is the copy of actual document, not only a transcript... maybe I can extract some valuable information about my GGGParents...as I dont even know their names!!

Maybe my GGFather birth record was lost then... I thought they had it but could not provide It!

Thanks again Livio, I'll need your help again when I receive the documents!

My next step is locating Brivio Parish Priest...

[Tessa78]

Maybe my GGFather birth record was lost then... I thought they had it but could not provide It!

The record of birth would be at the comune, not at the parish. You should write to the Comune of Brivio for your GGM's birth record, as Livio suggested

Here is the address:
Ufficio dello Stato Civile
Via V. Emanuele II, 12
23883 Brivio (LC)
ITALY

Did you also write to Cairate for your GGF's birth record?

Ufficio dello Stato Civile
Piazza Libertà, 7
21050 Cairate (VA)
ITALY

T.

[MascheroniBR]

Maybe my GGFather birth record was lost then... I thought they had it but could not provide It!

The record of birth would be at the comune, not at the parish. You should write to the Comune of Brivio for your GGM's birth record, as Livio suggested

Here is the address:
Ufficio dello Stato Civile
Via V. Emanuele II, 12
23883 Brivio (LC)
ITALY

Did you also write to Cairate for your GGF's birth record?

Ufficio dello Stato Civile
Piazza Libertà, 7
21050 Cairate (VA)
ITALY

T.

Yes Tessa, I requested from Cairate birth records for both my GGF and GGM (as I didnt know she was born in Brivio) but in the response, they said that Civil Records began after 1866, and as my GGFs were born prior that date, they suggested I should contact the Parish for such records.

I did not ask for Death Records though...I wonder if they have those!

Inoltre gli atti di stato civile decorrono dal 1866, pertanto non possiamo rilasciare i certificati di nascita dei signori Lavelli Angela e Mascheroni Gaetano nati in anni precedenti.Si consiglia pertanto di rivolgersi alla parrocchia(...)

However, the Parish claims that does not hold birth records... now I'm confused!

Does Marriage records from that period (1870~1890) inform the birth date and parents name from the couple? If so, I think I'll wait for such information before writing to Brivio... I would feed them with more precise information as for today I only have my GGM name!

[Tessa78]

However, the Parish claims that does not hold birth records... now I'm confused!

Does Marriage records from that period (1870~1890) inform the birth date and parents name from the couple? If so, I think I'll wait for such information before writing to Brivio... I would feed them with more precise information as for today I only have my GGM name!

Indeed, the Parish does NOT hold birth records, but rather baptism records.

The CIVIL Marriage record will have information about birth, parents, etc. The PARISH Marriage record, which is usually written in Latin, will have the names of parents as well.

The Marriage would have most often taken place in the comune of the bride. You can write to Brivio for your GGM's birth record and the marriage record...
Waiting until after you receive the records being sent by the Parish in Cairate is a good call!!!

T.

[MascheroniBR]

I didn't receive any response from Brivio yet (3 weeks already), I'll try again by the end of the week.
I am also waiting for the records that the Parish claimed he sent to me... wondering why is taking so long!

Meanwhile, I managed to get the copia integralle from by GF birth record!!

Can you help me translate it into english? I`m looking for relevant information such as profession from the parents, birth place, time, witnesses, etc... if available of course!

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/796/ma ... gralle.jpg

Grazie for your continuous support!

[Tessa78]

The record is dated 13 January 1901 at 1 PM at the town hall...
Before the official appeared Gaetano Mascheroni, 37, workman (operaio), to declare (and present) a male child born at 7 PM on the 8th of the current month to Angela Lavelli, his wife living with him. They gave the child the name Carlo Rinaldo.

Witnesses to the recording of the act...
Ercole Saporiti, 28, shoemaker
Giacomo Dorta(sp?), 30, secretary

On the right side are notations for the
Marriage of Carlo to Elise Torres(not sure of this name/spelling) on 15 Nov 1927
Death of Carlo on 15 February 1963.
These records (marriage and death) are recorded in Parte II of the comune records.

SOOOO... from your first post...

My Grandfather, Mascheroni Carlo Rinaldo (There is some confusion regarding his name, as some documents refer to him as Carlo Rinaldo Mascheroni). He was born in Cairate on January 06th 1901, however, his Ato di Nascita was issue incorrectly according to my father, it was issued as if he was born January 08th instead.He was indeed born on the 8th!

T.

[liviomoreno]

On the right side:
Carlo R. married Elisa??? Torres in Rio de Janeiro on 19 Nov 1927 - The Marriage was registered in Cairate on Jan 16 1990 with act #8 Part II Series C year 1989
Carlo died in Rio de Janeiro on 19 Feb 1963 - The Death was registered in Cairate on Jan 25 1990 with act #21 Part II Series C year 1989

[Tessa78]

On the right side:
Carlo R. married Elisa??? Torres in Rio de Janeiro on 19 Nov 1927 - The Marriage was registered in Cairate on Jan 16 1990 with act #8 Part II Series C year 1989
Carlo died in Rio de Janeiro on 19 Feb 1963 - The Death was registered in Cairate on Jan 25 1990 with act #21 Part II Series C year 1989

Hi Livio! Thanks for catching these -

T.

[liviomoreno]

I believe that, by law, births were supposed to be registered within a certain number of days. Usually they were registered the same day or the day after.
Carlo Romano's birth was registered on the 13th and the father declared that he was born on the 8th, 5 days later! So it is possible that Carlo was actually born on the 6th but his father declared that he was born 2 days later to avoid problems with the law...

[MascheroniBR]

I believe that, by law, births were supposed to be registered within a certain number of days. Usually they were registered the same day or the day after.
Carlo Romano's birth was registered on the 13th and the father declared that he was born on the 8th, 5 days later! So it is possible that Carlo was actually born on the 6th but his father declared that he was born 2 days later to avoid problems with the law...

This makes a lot of sense Livio!!!! The record date supports this theory... 7 days after the birth was a long time to register a child I think!

My father and aunts say that they would celebrate Grandpa's birthday every Jan 06th - Three Kings Day. I'm 99% sure that he was born actually on 06th. However, they consider the date described on his Atto di nascita as a mistake from the Office... your post may have answered an old question my family have!!
I think my GGF broke the law then...

This record has provided my GGF birth year! Nice!!
I'll wait for the parish files to crosscheck information!

Thanks for the prompt reply everyone!!