Certificate of Naturalization doesn't match my records

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lucaless
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Certificate of Naturalization doesn't match my records

Post by lucaless »

Has anybody had issues with their certificate of naturalization date being wrong? I am in the process of getting my dual citizenship through my great grandfather and the certificate my father sent me does not match the dates I have for my GGF records. It is saying he was naturalized before he even arrived in New York. I have documentation from Trapani that proves it is wrong via their marriage certificate and date they departed italy and arrived in new york. I am currently waiting on the official certificate from USCIS, but if it says the same date as the one my father sent me what should I do? Has anybody had this issue before? Thank you for your time.
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qualdom
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Re: Certificate of Naturalization doesn't match my records

Post by qualdom »

It's hard to believe that the date could be wrong, considering that the naturalization numbers (the certificate number on the n550) are issued in sequential order.

The only thing that I can think of is are you sure it is not a certificate of citizenship? Did USCIS determine that your GGF was eligible for citizenship at an earlier date due to the naturalization of his father (your GGGF)?
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Re: Certificate of Naturalization doesn't match my records

Post by lucaless »

Thank you for pointing this out. Upon looking at the document this is actually a certificate of citizenship. But what is the difference? I am waiting on my search inquiry from USCIS as I know that can take 6 months to a year. All the information I have gathered proves that he married in Trapani in 1931 and did not arrive in the US until Jan 1932. But the certificate of citizenship from New York clerk has a date of July 1931. This is where I am confused. So I am assuming the certificate is just a petition for his naturalization and not the actual date he was naturalized in New York?
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BobNY
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Re: Certificate of Naturalization doesn't match my records

Post by BobNY »

lucaless wrote: 30 Oct 2021, 20:54 This is where I am confused. So I am assuming the certificate is just a petition for his naturalization and not the actual date he was naturalized in New York?

No, the certificate is THE certificate; it is not the petition. Also, the petition, under most circumstances, cannot be filed until the alien has been in the county for 5 years.

You apparently have information about the date of the couple's arrival in New York. Can you be sure that he was not in US prior to that journey?

A few questions:
What is your GGF's name?
Do you have either the declaration of intention or the petition for naturalization?
What court processed the naturalization?
Do you have a copy of the ship's manifest documenting the couple's arrival?
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Re: Certificate of Naturalization doesn't match my records

Post by lucaless »

I am not 100% sure he was in the US prior, but there are no records of him being in New York besides that certificate so this is something I have to look into further as it can be the only explanation.

GGF name is Francesco Damiano

I believe this is the petition for naturalization as it says: to be given to the person naturalized, certificate of citizenship, petition# xxxxxx

The court says District Court of The United States

Yes I have a copy of the ships manifest
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Re: Certificate of Naturalization doesn't match my records

Post by mler »

A Certificate of Citizenship was generally provided to a person who obtained citizenship through the naturalization of another person. Since he would not have his own naturalization certificate, the Certificate of Citizenship was a way to prove American citizenship. It is highly unlikely that a person who naturalized on his own behalf would have requested or received a Certificate of Citizenship.

It was not uncommon for Italian immigrants to find brides in Italy and then return to the US with their new wives. Based on the information you have, there is a strong possibility that your ggf naturalized as a minor through his father’s naturalization and later requested a Certificate of Citizenship to document his status.

If you are seeking citizenship recognition through your ggf, such a situation would likely end that possibility, so you may want to look to your ggm.
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Re: Certificate of Naturalization doesn't match my records

Post by lucaless »

Thank you for that information. This seems like a possibility. Should I request a naturalization document from USCIS for my GGGF? I am going to do some research to see if he actually lived in the US and came by boat because I haven't gone that deep. I was hoping to go through my GGF. You mentioned going through my GGM, but I thought I could only go through my paternal side. Is that true? Am I able to get my citizenship through my GGM if my GGF was naturalized before my Grandfather was born?
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Re: Certificate of Naturalization doesn't match my records

Post by TerraLavoro »

mler wrote: 02 Nov 2021, 00:18 A Certificate of Citizenship was generally provided to a person who obtained citizenship through the naturalization of another person. Since he would not have his own naturalization certificate, the Certificate of Citizenship was a way to prove American citizenship. It is highly unlikely that a person who naturalized on his own behalf would have requested or received a Certificate of Citizenship.
Just for the record, and without comment on the subject of this post, @mier is not correct in stating that "Certificates of Citizenship" were provided to a person who obtained citizenship through the naturalization of another person. My GF filed his petition in 1929, and received a "Certificate of Citizenship". (I have the original and used it for my own recognition) Both of his parents were aliens, having never petitioned on their own. I have seen this with regard to a number of other individuals.
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Re: Certificate of Naturalization doesn't match my records

Post by mler »

“What is a Certificate of Citizenship?

A Certificate of Citizenship is an identity document proving U.S. citizenship. It is generally issued to derivative citizens and to persons who acquired U.S. citizenship. Derivation of citizenship is common for permanent resident children whose parent(s) naturalize. When certain requirements are met, the child automatically becomes a U.S. citizen. Acquisition of citizenship happens when a child is born outside the United States to at least one U.S. citizen parent. This certificate is different than a Certificate of Naturalization.” (From citizenpath.com)

The two documents are often confused, but they are very different.
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Re: Certificate of Naturalization doesn't match my records

Post by mler »

To clarify further, the following is a direct quote from uscis.gov


“What documents are usually accepted as proof of U.S. citizenship?
The most common documents that establish U.S. citizenship are:
• Birth Certificate, issued by a U.S. State (if the person was born in the United States), or by the U.S. Department of State (if the person was born abroad to U.S. citizen parents who registered the child’s birth and U.S. citizenship with the U.S. Embassy or consulate);
• U.S. Passport, issued by the U.S. Department of State;
• Certificate of Citizenship, issued to a person born outside the United States who derived or acquired U.S. citizenship through a U.S. citizen parent; or
• Naturalization Certificate, issued to a person who became a U.S. citizen after 18 years of age through the naturalization process.”

You will note that the Certificate of Citizenship is issued to those obtaining derivative citizenship . The Naturalization Certificate is issued to those who naturalized on their own behalf.

The Certificate of Citizenship would also include both the date the Certificate was issued and the date of the naturalization that resulted in citizenship.

TerraLavoro, look carefully at your gf’s papers. What you probably have is his Certificate of Naturalization, which is the document he would have received after he followed his petition with a naturalization and oath of allegiance.
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Re: Certificate of Naturalization doesn't match my records

Post by mler »

Lucaless, regarding your question re your great grandmother. If her child (your gf/gm) was born in 1948 or later, there is no issue. If before 1948, you would need to initiate a 1948 case, but you would still be able to obtain citizenship; it would just be a bit more costly.

If you indeed have a Certificate of Citizenship for your ggf, the date would be the date of your gggf’s naturalization, but your gggf’s papers would not be necessary for a citizenship application.

You should definitely check your ggm’s naturalization status. If her husband was a US citizen, there is a strong possibility that she ultimately naturalized.
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Re: Certificate of Naturalization doesn't match my records

Post by TerraLavoro »

mler wrote: 02 Nov 2021, 22:31 To clarify further, the following is a direct quote from uscis.gov


“What documents are usually accepted as proof of U.S. citizenship?
The most common documents that establish U.S. citizenship are:
• Birth Certificate, issued by a U.S. State (if the person was born in the United States), or by the U.S. Department of State (if the person was born abroad to U.S. citizen parents who registered the child’s birth and U.S. citizenship with the U.S. Embassy or consulate);
• U.S. Passport, issued by the U.S. Department of State;
• Certificate of Citizenship, issued to a person born outside the United States who derived or acquired U.S. citizenship through a U.S. citizen parent; or
• Naturalization Certificate, issued to a person who became a U.S. citizen after 18 years of age through the naturalization process.”

You will note that the Certificate of Citizenship is issued to those obtaining derivative citizenship . The Naturalization Certificate is issued to those who naturalized on their own behalf.

The Certificate of Citizenship would also include both the date the Certificate was issued and the date of the naturalization that resulted in citizenship.

TerraLavoro, look carefully at your gf’s papers. What you probably have is his Certificate of Naturalization, which is the document he would have received after he followed his petition with a naturalization and oath of allegiance.
What I have is my GF's certificate of citizenship. I am able to read mier.
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Re: Certificate of Naturalization doesn't match my records

Post by BobNY »

I don't understand the source of all this confusion. Unless I have an entirely different family, here is a timeline of Francesco's travels readily obtained from Ancestry.com

24 Oct 1920 - Boards SS Belevedere in Palermo in the company of his sister Brigida and nephew Giovanni Portoghese.

12 Nov 1920 - Arrives Port of New York with final destination of Detroit, Michigan at residence of brother-in-law Vincenzo Portoghese. (331 Auburn St.)

1 July 1925 - Relocates to Brooklyn, Kings, New York (218 Moore St.)

8 Mar 1929 - Files Declaration of Intention in the US District Court for the Eastern District of NY.

25 Mar 1931 - Bureau of Naturalization issues certificate of arrival certifying when and where Francesco was lawfully admitted to the US.

8 Apr 1931 - Petition for Naturalization is accepted by Clerk of the Court, USDC-EDNY

21 July 1931 - Francesco subscribes to an Oath of Allegiance, rejecting all foreign allegiances, particularly Victor Emmanuel, King of Italy.

Subsequently, Judge Galston certifies admission to citizenship of List 7338, including Francesco who is issued certificate #3425689.
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Re: Certificate of Naturalization doesn't match my records

Post by mler »

Terralavora, no one is questioning your ability to read. I suggest, however that you read the information regarding Certificates of Citizenship directly on the government site (uscis.gov) and demonstrate how the Certificate of Citizenship is other what I’ve described. You will note, if you check, that my post is a direct quote from that site.

Also from USCIS:

“N-600, Application for Certificate of Citizenship Frequently Asked Questions

What is Form N-600, Application for Certificate of Citizenship?
Form N-600, Application for Certificate of Citizenship, is filed to obtain a Certificate of Citizenship which serves as evidence of your or your child’s U.S. citizenship. You may file Form N-600 if you were born abroad and are claiming U.S. citizenship at birth through your parents. You may also file Form N-600 to obtain evidence of citizenship if you automatically became a U.S. citizen by operation of law after your birth but before you turned 18 years of age. A parent or guardian may also file Form N-600 on behalf of a minor child.

Please note that USCIS does not issue Certificates of Citizenship in cases where the person became a U.S. citizen based on birth in the United States. USCIS only issues Certificates of Citizenship to those individuals who were born abroad but are U.S. citizens at birth through their parents, or who became citizens after birth but before the age of 18.

For more information, see USCIS Policy Manual guidance on Children of U.S. Citizens.”

It’s certainly possible that USCIS rules have changed and that at one time it was possible to request and obtain a citizenship certificate documenting one’s own naturalization. But that is a very different scenario from a Certificate of Citizenship that is issued to those who obtained derivative citizenship as described by the USCIS.

In the case of derivative naturalization, the Certificate of Citizenship is given to someone who did not himself naturalize but who required proof of his citizenship status. These certificates are not tied to declarations or petitions, and it is often the date discrepancies that indicate the manner in which citizenship was obtained.
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Re: Certificate of Naturalization doesn't match my records

Post by mler »

Bobny, dates and locations are different, but that mirrors the experience of my gf and is a common scenario.
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