Confused About Great Grandfather, Great-Great Grandfather Scenario

[datxcali]

Hey all.

I honestly didn't think that I was eligible for Italian citizenship until beginning genealogy and finding this site (and, specifically, this page): https://www.myitalianfamily.com/dual-ci ... randfather.

I find this a bit hard to believe though so I want to make sure that I'm reading this right.

Here's my situation:

- Great-Great grandfather was born in Italy in 1861.
- Great grandfather was born in Italy in 1890.
- They immigrated to the US together in 1900.
- Great grandfather completed declaration of intent in 1911. (I did find a naturalization card too. So I guess it went through. He died around 1918 so it's possible that it didn't? Does it matter?)
- Grandfather was born in 1914.

Based on what I read on that website, I would be eligible for Italian citizenship because 1) my great grandfather was born before my great-great grandfather was naturalized and 2) my great-great grandfather came over to the US.

Would this be correct?

[mler]

It matters. Your great great grandfather does not matter in this instance unless he naturalized while his son was still a minor (which you say he didnt). This means your great grandfather retained his citizenship until such time as he himself naturalized, and it is your great grandfather's possible naturalization that may present an issue.

If your great grandfather naturalized before your grandfather's birth, he lost citizenship at that time and could not pass citizenship to your grandfather. If he did not naturalize, his citizenship remained intact, and he could pass it to his son (your grandfather).

There is one additional wrinkle. If your great grandfather was married when he naturalized, his wife automatically naturalized with him. In this situation, even if he naturalized before the birth of his son, you would have a viable 1948 case through your great grandmother.

This is why dates are very important.

[datxcali]

Thanks for the response!

Unfortunately, I'm even more confused.

But here's a few things:

1) I'm not sure if my great-great grandfather ever naturalized. I haven't seen any evidence of it based on my research though.
2) My great grandfather did apply for naturalization in November of 1911: http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse. ... sePUB=true

My understanding is that a petition for naturalization and actually being naturalized are two different things, correct?

3) My great grandfather and great grandmother married in January of 1912: http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse. ... sePUB=true

4) My grandfather was born in December of 1914.

5) I believe that this means that my great grandfather was naturalized at some point (correct?): http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse. ... sePUB=true

Thanks again for the response! Sorry for the barrage of questions, but, as you can see, I'm very confused about this process!

[Tessa78]

Thanks for the response!

Unfortunately, I'm even more confused.

But here's a few things:

1) I'm not sure if my great-great grandfather ever naturalized. I haven't seen any evidence of it based on my research though.
2) My great grandfather did apply for naturalization in November of 1911: http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse. ... sePUB=true

My understanding is that a petition for naturalization and actually being naturalized are two different things, correct?

3) My great grandfather and great grandmother married in January of 1912: http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse. ... sePUB=true

4) My grandfather was born in December of 1914.

5) I believe that this means that my great grandfather was naturalized at some point (correct?): http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse. ... sePUB=true

Thanks again for the response! Sorry for the barrage of questions, but, as you can see, I'm very confused about this process!

On the second page of your GGF's Petition, you will see that it was denied because of the incompetence of the witnesses on 13 February 1912.
T.

[mler]

It seems that your great grandfather may not have naturalized, but you must do a search. If he did naturalize, it may well have taken place after your grandfather's birth. This would be the easiest scenario.

Also, because your great grandfather came to the US as a minor, you will also have to search for evidence that your great great grandfather never naturalized. However, this would only be necessary if you find no naturalization records for your great grandfather.

If neither naturalized, you are eligible through your great grandfather's line. If your great grandfather naturalized after his marriage, you can also trace eligibility through your great grandmother.

Again, you need to do some research and obtain actual dates. And you're correct--a petition is not the same as naturalization.

Based on what you have so far, it appears you are eligible. The path you will take depends on the dates.

[datxcali]

On the second page of your GGF's Petition, you will see that it was denied because of the incompetence of the witnesses on 13 February 1912.
T.

Thanks for the response! I completely missed that page!

It seems that your great grandfather may not have naturalized, but you must do a search. If he did naturalize, it may well have taken place after your grandfather's birth. This would be the easiest scenario.

Also, because your great grandfather came to the US as a minor, you will also have to search for evidence that your great great grandfather never naturalized. However, this would only be necessary if you find no naturalization records for your great grandfather.

If neither naturalized, you are eligible through your great grandfather's line. If your great grandfather naturalized after his marriage, you can also trace eligibility through your great grandmother.

Again, you need to do some research and obtain actual dates. And you're correct--a petition is not the same as naturalization.

Based on what you have so far, it appears you are eligible. The path you will take depends on the dates.

Thanks for the response!

A few more questions:

1) What are your recommendations for the best ways to conduct this research? Based on information I've found online, it seems like I will have to go through USCIS for records after 1906 and New York State Archives for anything before 1906. Would that be correct?

2) I was under the impression that if a parent became a naturalized citizen, his wife and children automatically followed suit. So if my great great grandfather did become naturalized before my great grandfather was 18, wouldn't my great grandfather automatically become a citizen?

3) In this case, my great grandfather and great grandmother got married 21 Jan 1912 and he was rejected for naturalization 3 Feb 1912. Would that be proof enough that he wasn't naturalized before getting married?

If so, would I simply be able to trace my great grandmother's line (which would be easy since her father never left Italy)?

[mler]

Yes, you need to follow that procedure. Check first on your great grandfather. If you find naturalization records for him, there is no need to do a search of your great great grandfather's records because, as you note, your great grandfather would not need to naturalize on his own behalf if he naturalized as a minor with his father. If you do not find naturalization records for your great grandfather, you will need to trace back to your great great grandfather to prove naturalization as a minor did not take place.

Yes, the petition denial a few months before your great grandfather's wedding logically shows he was still Italian when he married. However, logic doesn't work here. To satisfy the consulate, you will need to provide either statements of "no record" or specific evidence of naturalization.

There are three possible scenarios:

1. Your great grandfather never naturalized. In this case, you trace your citizenship through his line beginning with your great great grandfather.

2. Your great grandfather naturalized after your grandfather's birth. In this case your trace begins with your great grandfather.

3. Your great grandfather naturalized before the birth of your grandfather. In this case, your great grandfather lost his citizenship and could not pass it to your grandfather. However, during this historical period, a woman automatically naturalized with her husband. That means your great grandmother obtained US citizenship when her husband naturalized and did not naturalize independently. This scenario gives you a 1948 case.

The good news is that you likely qualify. The only way you do not qualify is if your great grandfather naturalized as a minor, and based on your evidence, this appears unlikely. Scenario 2 is the easiest path, but all would work. Your great grandmother's line is more complex since her citizenship is dependent on her husband's status (not her father's once she was married) and would require a lawsuit.

[jennabet]

On the second page of your GGF's Petition, you will see that it was denied because of the incompetence of the witnesses on 13 February 1912.
T.

Thanks for the response! I completely missed that page!

A few more questions:

1) What are your recommendations for the best ways to conduct this research? Based on information I've found online, it seems like I will have to go through USCIS for records after 1906 and New York State Archives for anything before 1906. Would that be correct?

2) I was under the impression that if a parent became a naturalized citizen, his wife and children automatically followed suit. So if my great great grandfather did become naturalized before my great grandfather was 18, wouldn't my great grandfather automatically become a citizen?

3) In this case, my great grandfather and great grandmother got married 21 Jan 1912 and he was rejected for naturalization 3 Feb 1912. Would that be proof enough that he wasn't naturalized before getting married?

If so, would I simply be able to trace my great grandmother's line (which would be easy since her father never left Italy)?

I think you're good to go with what you have and that it's not necessary to do any further searching. As you can see the Petition section of the naturalization process contains the most information about the immigrant.

In your case it states that he was denied citizenship on Feb. 3, 1912. If another petition had been filed at a later time to start the naturalization process again, you would have been able to find it as easily as you found the first one because all the information about this immigrant is well known to the US immigration authorities and the consulate should be able to figure this out.

So I would just go with what you have and if the consulate insists, you could always provide more documentation but I wouldn't waste my time doing extra research at this point. The consulates only require additional proof when you haven't been able to come up with anything at all that shows an ancestor was not naturalized but you came up with a legal petition that was denied.

Also, for the record, because the Petition itself is a very important document which contains pertinent information about the immigrant, I fail to see how any consulate anywhere could approve for citizenship a descendant who fails to submit, inadvertently or deliberately, the Petition along with the Declaration of Intention and the Oath.

[mler]

Ah jennebet, the petition does not show the date of naturalization, and therefore, has never been a requirement for submission. In fact, preliminary papers are never required because they only demonstrate the intent to naturalize not the actual date on which citizenship is lost. It is the Naturalization Certificate that Is required. In my case, NY was willing to accept the Oath in lieu of the Certificate. I don't know if they would be willing to do so today, but I tend to think it would still be a valid substitute. They didn't care about the declaration either.

Jennebet is correct that the rejected petition shows that he did not naturalize and thus lose citizenship before his marriage. (I misread the date). Might the consulate accept this as proof of no naturalization? Yes, up until the date on the petition. However, your great grandfather could most certainly have made a second attempt in the years before his death. Many immigrants did apply more than one time, and it appears that your great grandfather's application was rejected for a minor issue that could be easily corrected.

Jennebet, he was not denied citizenship; his petition was rejected because of incompetent witnesses. A new petition with new witnesses could possibly have resulted in a different outcome. Did it happen? Probably not, but when have consulates ever accepted probabilities? They demand proof.

And yes, a second petition should have been easy to locate if it existed, but when has a consulate ever accepted the argument "I would have found the petition/naturalization/oath if it existed"? If that were the case, any applicant could make a similar argument. That's why consulates require "no record" letters. The "no record" letter is proof that a future naturalization did not occur at either the federal or local level.

[mler]

I should add that since your great grandfather was demonstraby still an Italian citizen at the time of his marriage, even if he naturalized before the birth of your grandfather, your great grandmother's citizenship was unaffected. If you are willing to incur the additional cost, a 1948 court case would work.

With the other documentation, you can go the less-costly consulate route.

On further thought, you MAY be able to forego the search of your great great grandfather's records. That your great grandfather petitioned for citizenship as an adult implies that he never received citizenship as a minor. However, I say "may" because some consulates are extra thorough and may still ask for your great great grandfather's records on the offchance that his son did not realize he had obtained derivative citizenship as a child. I think, though, you would probably be ok without these records.

[datxcali]

Ah jennebet, the petition does not show the date of naturalization, and therefore, has never been a requirement for submission. In fact, preliminary papers are never required because they only demonstrate the intent to naturalize not the actual date on which citizenship is lost. It is the Naturalization Certificate that Is required. In my case, NY was willing to accept the Oath in lieu of the Certificate. I don't know if they would be willing to do so today, but I tend to think it would still be a valid substitute. They didn't care about the declaration either.

Jennebet is correct that the rejected petition shows that he did not naturalize and thus lose citizenship before his marriage. (I misread the date). Might the consulate accept this as proof of no naturalization? Yes, up until the date on the petition. However, your great grandfather could most certainly have made a second attempt in the years before his death. Many immigrants did apply more than one time, and it appears that your great grandfather's application was rejected for a minor issue that could be easily corrected.

Jennebet, he was not denied citizenship; his petition was rejected because of incompetent witnesses. A new petition with new witnesses could possibly have resulted in a different outcome. Did it happen? Probably not, but when have consulates ever accepted probabilities? They demand proof.

And yes, a second petition should have been easy to locate if it existed, but when has a consulate ever accepted the argument "I would have found the petition/naturalization/oath if it existed"? If that were the case, any applicant could make a similar argument. That's why consulates require "no record" letters. The "no record" letter is proof that a future naturalization did not occur at either the federal or local level.

I should add that since your great grandfather was demonstraby still an Italian citizen at the time of his marriage, even if he naturalized before the birth of your grandfather, your great grandmother's citizenship was unaffected. If you are willing to incur the additional cost, a 1948 court case would work.

With the other documentation, you can go the less-costly consulate route.

On further thought, you MAY be able to forego the search of your great great grandfather's records. That your great grandfather petitioned for citizenship as an adult implies that he never received citizenship as a minor. However, I say "may" because some consulates are extra thorough and may still ask for your great great grandfather's records on the offchance that his son did not realize he had obtained derivative citizenship as a child. I think, though, you would probably be ok without these records.

On the second page of your GGF's Petition, you will see that it was denied because of the incompetence of the witnesses on 13 February 1912.
T.

Thanks for the response! I completely missed that page!

A few more questions:

1) What are your recommendations for the best ways to conduct this research? Based on information I've found online, it seems like I will have to go through USCIS for records after 1906 and New York State Archives for anything before 1906. Would that be correct?

2) I was under the impression that if a parent became a naturalized citizen, his wife and children automatically followed suit. So if my great great grandfather did become naturalized before my great grandfather was 18, wouldn't my great grandfather automatically become a citizen?

3) In this case, my great grandfather and great grandmother got married 21 Jan 1912 and he was rejected for naturalization 3 Feb 1912. Would that be proof enough that he wasn't naturalized before getting married?

If so, would I simply be able to trace my great grandmother's line (which would be easy since her father never left Italy)?

I think you're good to go with what you have and that it's not necessary to do any further searching. As you can see the Petition section of the naturalization process contains the most information about the immigrant.

In your case it states that he was denied citizenship on Feb. 3, 1912. If another petition had been filed at a later time to start the naturalization process again, you would have been able to find it as easily as you found the first one because all the information about this immigrant is well known to the US immigration authorities and the consulate should be able to figure this out.

So I would just go with what you have and if the consulate insists, you could always provide more documentation but I wouldn't waste my time doing extra research at this point. The consulates only require additional proof when you haven't been able to come up with anything at all that shows an ancestor was not naturalized but you came up with a legal petition that was denied.

Also, for the record, because the Petition itself is a very important document which contains pertinent information about the immigrant, I fail to see how any consulate anywhere could approve for citizenship a descendant who fails to submit, inadvertently or deliberately, the Petition along with the Declaration of Intention and the Oath.

Thanks so much for the responses!

Would I be able to submit this document as evidence: http://interactive.ancestry.com/6482/00 ... dit/record

It seems that on his World War 1 draft registration card, my great grandfather wrote that he was still a citizen of Italy and in the naturalization question, he wrote "First paper". This was in June of 1917 so after my grandfather was born.

Also, is a death certificate mandatory for my great grandfather? According to family legend, he died shortly after my great uncle Robert was born in 1918. Supposedly, he died in a hunting accident in upstate New York. The census information does support the fact that he was no longer present around this time (he seemed to disappear after this World War 1 document), but I can't, for the life of me, find any information about his death.

[mler]

I have not maintained my Ancestry membership so I don't have access to the document you've posted.

If it is a draft registration document, that would be excellent supporting evidence that your great grandfather was not naturalized when his son was born. However, like census records, the information on this document is self reported so it doesn't carry the same weight as an official "no record" letter. You really should attempt to get that.

Death certificates are required as part of the document set, but many people have had difficulty locating death records, and with all the other documentation you now, or will soon, have, the consulate may overlook its absence. However, it's never easy to predict how the consulate will respond to a missing document no matter how inconsequential it may seem. In other words, keep looking. You may want to check local cemeteries as well as official records.

Keep in mind that you have a definite path through your great grandmother. She married an Italian husband in 1912 (proven with both the marriage certificate and the rejected petition). Even had she not been Italian at birth, her Italian citizenship was confirmed with this marriage (pre Cable Act). Thus, no matter what citizenship actions her husband would subsequently take, she could not have naturalized on her own behalf before her son's birth.

To clarify, before the 1922 Cable Act, a woman's citizenship was automatically determined by the citizenship of her husband. She could not naturalize on her own. Italian courts have found that women in this position did not lose Italian citizenship. The consulates don't care; this would require a 1948 court case.

[jennabet]

A second petition should have been easy to locate if it existed, but when has a consulate ever accepted the argument "I would have found the petition/naturalization/oath if it existed"? If that were the case, any applicant could make a similar argument. That's why consulates require "no record" letters. The "no record" letter is proof that a future naturalization did not occur at either the federal or local level.

Likewise mler, consulates are not in business to let slide something as important as a declaration and petition in lieu of just an oath. They are also not in business to recognize someone who obviously thinks of himself as a "privileged" character who does not need to submit thorough paperwork. So did the New York consulate recognize you without the proper documentation that is required of everyone else? NO, I don't think so.

Regarding the OP. He/she has already met all of the consulate's requirements because he/she was able to come up with enough proof that the ancestor was not naturalized before the decedents birth and for that reason, further research is not necessary. Further research is only required when the applicant has come up totally empty regarding naturalization.

[mler]

Jennebet, quite frankly I don't care what you believe or do not believe. However, I will clarify yet again. The Oath was not accepted in lieu of a declaration and petition (neither of which was required when I applied); it was accepted in lieu of a naturalization certificate. Both the certificate and the Oath officially document the actual naturalization, which is why they were likely ok with either.

Would this fly today? I doubt it. Requirements are much more stringent today than they were twelve years ago. Today the consulates require more, not fewer documents. Quite frankly, that is why I am perplexed by your insistence that a "no record" letter is not necessary.

Let's look to the consulate for clarification. This is from the website of the NY Consulate, but the same wording is on the websites of the other consulates:

"In case your Italian born ancestor never naturalized US citizen, please provide:

ORIGINAL CERTIFICATE OF NONEXISTENCE OF RECORDS issued by the U.S. Citizenship & Immigration Services (www.uscis.gov) no translation is required;
CERTIFIED COPY OF THE CENSUS first available immediately after the birth in the US of the direct descent (www.census.org) no translation is required;"

Thus the OP has not "already met all of the consulate's requirements" as you suggest. The rejected petition documents no naturalization as of February 1912, confirming his wife's Italian citizenship; the son was born in 1914. Both draft registration and census records are self-reported and thus anecdotal. The consulate wants that "no record" certificate.

It is really irresponsible to encourage someone to apply at a consulate without all the documentation that they actually DO require, particularly when it is so difficult to obtain appointments.

[mler]

Datxcali, there are several more things to consider.

Since you cannot provide the consulate with the 1920 census record they require to accompany the official "no record" certification, the draft registration may be an adequate substitute.

Do make a diligent attempt to locate death records because his death pre-1920 explains the lack of census records.

You may want to contact Catholic cemeteries and churches in the upstate vicinity where the accident took place as well as the local municipalities.

And again, you always have your great grandmother as a backup. Not a bad position to be in.