Dark-skinned Italians near Rome

[MarcuccioV]

In doing some family research along with a DNA match I found in England, this question (which I've had bouncing around in my head for some time) came back to me with gusto.

How common would dark-skinned Italians have been in the Rome/Lazio area..?

Here are some pics sent to me from my DNA match. They are all parenti on his maternal side, all from either Valmontone or Artena (SE of Rome), they are likely related to my grandfather (also from Valmontone) who had a similar skin tone.

Notice the dark complexions on the men. My mother also tanned dark (as well as I). I know others whose family's are from this area or nearby and are nowhere near this dark, even when tanned. Even my Sicilian Aunt (by marriage) and my BFF's family (from Sicily as well) were ALL far lighter than this...

Is it uncommon for skin this dark to be this far north in Italy..? Just wondering...

[MarcuccioV]

By comparison, this is my grandfather:

[darkerhorse]

So, this isn't your father's side of the family?

Don't you already know your mother has Italian ancestry?

[MarcuccioV]

So, this isn't your father's side of the family?

Don't you already know your mother has Italian ancestry?

Yes <sigh>... Just trying to follow up on details...

[darkerhorse]

Is it the same man in all three photos? Have you tried the photo matching software? Have you tried colorizing the photos?

[darkerhorse]

I was reminded of Campy who had an Italian father and black mother. Here he is younger and older.

Campy.jpg (8.88 KiB) Viewed 4699 times

What do you think?

[MarcuccioV]

Funny you mention Roy -- he lived for many years not far from where I do now, down the street from several of my clients in Woodland Hills, CA. Suburban house in an upper-middle-class tract.

No African in my DNA from any matrix, but the skin tone is comparable, maybe a tad darker.

[MarcuccioV]

Is it the same man in all three photos? Have you tried the photo matching software? Have you tried colorizing the photos?

I'm not sure. Possibly, maybe brothers..? I have not done either yet.

[MarcuccioV]

Colorizing doesn't work well. Comparison for the two men with children was an 86% match. I'd guess them as brothers. The man with the women and the one in the overcoat MIGHT be the same person, but that's only a guess.

[darkerhorse]

Looks to me like the dark skin comes more from race than from the sun. Especially seen in the second photo.

Like from the Horn of Africa. Italy's wars with Ethiopia date back to 1887. And, of course, there was Libya or Italian North Africa.

There were mixed-race children born during/after WWII, perhaps such births also occurred in earlier wars.

[MarcuccioV]

Looks to me like the dark skin comes more from race than from the sun. Especially seen in the second photo.

Like from the Horn of Africa. Italy's wars with Ethiopia date back to 1887. And, of course, there was Libya or Italian North Africa.

There were mixed-race children born during/after WWII, perhaps such births also occurred in earlier wars.

Yes, it's all possible. I totally agree about ethnicity vs sun exposure. DNA.LAND gives me an average of about 20% of what they call "Mediterranean Islander", which includes Sicily, Cyprus and a small northern portion of North Africa (Tunisia, it looks like). That's the closest I can get.

It could be a bit of Moor, Arabic or Greek (which is a common mixture in Sicily). My original question (still unanswered) is how these dark folks (including my grandfather) wound up near Rome. It was obviously prior to the available paper trail (1871). But how and by what route..? And with what stops along the way..?

I know the whole Roman Empire thing, but I'd think the skin tone would moderate after generations of mixing with people of a lighter skin tone. These all look to be recent gens from darker skinned lines, but they have several gens before them born in this same Roman area...

I wish I could get deeper into the tree, but I can't. I'm kinda jealous of those that can get back to the 1820's or earlier -- I'd love to be able to trace back that far...

[darkerhorse]

You can get back before 1820 using church records (before 1820) and civil allegati (after 1820).

Maybe the new dark-skinned man is a distant relative so you don't share enough DNA for race to show in you, or maybe his race is from his parent whose not related to you by blood?

[darkerhorse]

Have you searched records for persons from your town (including non-relatives) to see if there are enclaves of particular races, ethnicities, religions, etc. which might explain darker skin pigment?

[MarcuccioV]

You can get back before 1820 using church records (before 1820) and civil allegati (after 1820).

Maybe the new dark-skinned man is a distant relative so you don't share enough DNA for race to show in you, or maybe his race is from his parent whose not related to you by blood?

Possibly, but my grandfather is as dark as they are. I'm sure they are cousins (of some extent) of my grandfather.

I can only surmise at this point.

[MarcuccioV]

Have you searched records for persons from your town (including non-relatives) to see if there are enclaves of particular races, ethnicities, religions, etc. which might explain darker skin pigment?

Very few pics of unrelated people from that area (at least from the time period), & those I've seen don't seem very dark. No clues by surname.

No records online before 1871. I would have to write to Italy for info, & my understanding is that is a crapshoot at best...