Surname: Valiando

[whymse]

Hello all,

I am hoping that I can find some assistance with my search for a great-great-grandparents from Italy.
I have found the 1920 census information for my great-grandparents:

Bronx - New York:
Thomas Valiando - Head
Esther Valiando - Wife
Cecilia Valiando - Daughter
Thomas Valiando - Son (my grandfather)

In the census my great-grandfather's mother and father are both listed as being from Italy with Italian as their mother tongue.

I found Thomas (listed as Tommaso) Valiando's marriage certificate to Ester W Noel on Oct 2nd, 1912 in Mahattan (Cert #23611)

I have also found Thomas Valiando's (senior, my great-grandfather) death information from May 6, 1922 in King's county (Cert #10316).

I have requested copies of the marriage certificate and death certificate from the NYC archives.

Googling for his name ("Thomas Valiando") links to a New York Times article from May 7th, 1922 that outlines his death from a falling piece of metal from an overhead train.

I have also found Thomas Valiando's (senior, my great-grandfather) WWI draft card which lists his birthday as May 17th, 1887.

Where I am stuck is that I can't find _any_ information on my great-great grandparents. I have checked ancestry.com, and every available ship manifest search engine and I can find no information for "Valiando" or "Valian*" even with a soundex search.

The only thing I have been told is that my great-great grandfather was born in Italy (Rome or Naples) and then moved to the US with his brother. I don't even know where they landed, and it would have been prior to Ellis Island, so that search doesn't yield anything.

Once I get names I will start searching for birth certificates and marriage certificates from Italy or the US, and then hope that he was naturalized after my great-grandfather was born. I'm also a bit afraid that he may have left Italy for the US before 1861, but I'll just have to wait and see.

Any help would be incredible appreciated. I can't seem to find anything (even first names) for either great-great grandfather or great-great grandmother.

Thank you so much in advance.

[vj]

Welcome to the Forum!
Really nice research on your family .

Checked the NYC Death records for a Valiando that may have been the correct age to be Thomas Sr’s father.
Found a Michele that may fit. He has a son Gaetano on the 1900 census…

NYC Death Records
Valiando Antonio (Antonia?) M F 53 y May 16 1914 10455 Kings 1860 - 1861
Valiando Michael 90 y Jul 13 1946 14238 Kings 1855 - 1856

No way of knowing for sure until you receive the records you ordered .

Since there are so few folks with the exact spelling Valiando, it's tough to determine
what the original surname may have been if it was 'americanized'
Valarie

1900 census
Home in 1900:
Brooklyn Ward 2, Kings, New York
Michael Valiante 43
Antonia Valiante 39
Pasquale Valiante 20
James Valiante 18
Alfonse Valiante 11
Gaetano Valiante 10
Rosie Valiante 9
Louisa Valiante 6
Maria Valiante 4
Angelina Valiante 2
Katie Valiante 1

1910 census
Home in 1910:
Brooklyn Ward 5, Kings, New York
Micheal A Valando 53
Antonio F Valando 49
Louisa H Valando 16
Mary T Valando 14
Angelina A Valando 12
Katie S Valando 11

1920 census
Home in 1920:
Brooklyn Assembly District 1, Kings, New York
Mike Valinaido 63
Angenlina Valinaido 22

1930 census
Home in 1930:
Brooklyn, Kings, New York
Michael Valiendo 74
Angelina Valiendo 26

possible 1910 census
Home in 1910:
Brooklyn Ward 29, Kings, New York
Boarder Thomas A Valandy 22

[BillieDeKid]

You've given your grandfathers name as Thomas and your great grandfathers names as Thomas.

Can you tell us the name of your great great grandfather and your great great grandmother? Also if your great grandfather Thomas (Tomasso) was born in May of 1887 then that means your great great grandfather had to be in Italy in 1886 (at least for a while). And do you happen to know your great great grandfathers brothers name (you said they traveled together to US)

[whymse]

Wow - thank you so much for the quick response. I think I'm definitely having a lot of fun with these searches, and I can't express how much I appreciate the help. I would _never_ had made those connections.

It looks like Michael/Mike/Duke Valiante/Valando/Valinaido/Valiendo/Valiando sure liked to change his name up. All that data sure seems to point to him being the same person (born ~1857).
From a potential citizenship perspective for me, it guess he would need to have not been naturalized (as he appears to have been based on census information) between 1880 (when he came to US) and 1887 (when my great-grandfather Thomas/Tommaso) was born.


vj - thanks very much... I have a few follow-up questions, which you could hopefully help with.

You seemed to believe that "Gaetano Valiante" could be the Thomas/Tommaso Valiando that I know to be my great-great-grandfather (born ~1887, died 1922), expect 10 years old at 1900 census would mean he was born in 1890. Is it common to see ages in census data that is off by ~3 years or so?
Also, I would think "Gaetano" would change to something like "Anthony" or "Antonio" or "Tony"... Should I not be assuming that much regarding name changes?

If Michael Valiando (or one of his many aliases) came to the US in 1880, that means not into Ellis Island. Given that he ended up in NYC, is there a port that is highly likely where I should focus my search?

BillieDeKid - Sadly, I don't have either of my great-great grandparent's names, but it sure seems like it's "Michael" that vj has found, if the "Gaetano" referenced in the census is my great-grandfather.
Both my grandfather and his father (my GGF) were named Thomas. I have struggled to find information on that side of the family because my GGF died in 1922 when my GF was very young.
If vj has found the right person then that means my GGGF came into the US in 1880, and 7 years elapsed before my GGF was born in 1887.


Thank you both so much for your help, this information will give me lots of new avenues to check.

[vj]

vj - thanks very much... I have a few follow-up questions, which you could hopefully help with.

You seemed to believe that "Gaetano Valiante" could be the Thomas/Tommaso Valiando that I know to be my great-great-grandfather (born ~1887, died 1922), expect 10 years old at 1900 census would mean he was born in 1890. Is it common to see ages in census data that is off by ~3 years or so?
Also, I would think "Gaetano" would change to something like "Anthony" or "Antonio" or "Tony"... Should I not be assuming that much regarding name changes?

If Michael Valiando (or one of his many aliases) came to the US in 1880, that means not into Ellis Island. Given that he ended up in NYC, is there a port that is highly likely where I should focus my search?

Thank you both so much for your help, this information will give me lots of new avenues to check.

I'm so glad we could help get you started again!

Yes Gaetano has often been 'americanized' to Thomas.
I have this in my family too!
Italian names

Oh my yes, birth years for children can be way off.
At that time children were usually born at home, and may not have had their births registered.
Whoever answered the enumerators questions may have relied on their best recollection.

There are other ports, but Castle Garden may be more likely:
Steve Morse One Step Castle Garden

Since the 1900 census shows two sons born in Italy, you may
have some success looking for them by their first names, birth years
and arrival dates.
Pasquale & Giacomo? or Vincenzo? (James)
It appears they may have traveled with their mother (she usually traveled
under her maiden name) or with a relative.
Also, the birth dates on their Draft Registration Cards may help zero in on everyone's
possible arrival dates.

Wish we could figure out what the original spelling of the surname
may have been!

Please let us know if the records that you've ordered help solve
this puzzle.

Thanks! Valarie

[whymse]

tj - I think you are right on with the boarder information from the 1910 census. The NY Times article I mentioned earlier said that Thomas Valiando (my GGF) was killed while working at a newstand and that he had been working there for many years. The census lists his occupation as "Newspaper Dealer" and the birthdates line up, so it seems like too many similarities.

If I believe I found the original "Michele Valiente" (my potential GGGF):
Occupation MINER
Age 27
Sex M
Literacy U
Ship CHATEAU LEOVILLE
Arrived 29 Jan 1883
Origin ITALY
Port BORDEAUX
Last Residence
Destination 7788
Plan Unknown
Passage Unknown

Is there a way to tell what city in Italy he originated from? I have looked at the scan of the passenger list on ancestry.com and I see him on the second page of the scans from that day.

Eventually I would like to be able to find when he was naturalized. If ancestry.com isn't showing anything for that then is there another good search engine for naturalization documents?

Too bad about the 1890 census being lost in a fire. That may have been extremely helpful.

Thanks again very much in advance.

[vj]

Is there a way to tell what city in Italy he originated from?

That's a tough one since the earlier manifests generally didn't list a town.
Sometimes looking for manifests for other family members that may
have joined him in NY can help.
Also finding the records for the rest of his children may yield more
clues.

Eventually I would like to be able to find when he was naturalized.
If ancestry.com isn't showing anything for that then is there another
good search engine for naturalization documents?

Footnote.com one-step search is another neat database (subscription) along with
the Steve Morse one-step NY Naturalizations.
Both allow for searches with partial names to allow for misspellings.

[suanj]

the italian spelling of surname could be also: VEGLIANTE.. however the first time that Valiando surname appear in Brooklyn births is abt:
Catharina Valiando 21 Mar 1899 5527 Births Reported in 1899. Borough of Brooklyn.
the previous children born in the USA maybe had other spell.. it could be also Valente, Vailanti and similar.... in Padula (Campania region) sure is VEGLIANTE....

regards, suanj

[whymse]

the italian spelling of surname could be also: VEGLIANTE.. however the first time that Valiando surname appear in Brooklyn births is abt:
Catharina Valiando 21 Mar 1899 5527 Births Reported in 1899. Borough of Brooklyn.
the previous children born in the USA maybe had other spell.. it could be also Valente, Vailanti and similar.... in Padula (Campania region) sure is VEGLIANTE....

regards, suanj

Oh no. I hope there isn't another spelling of my ancestors. There are already 4 or 5 that I am juggling. I hope that "Catharina - 21 Mar 1899" is the "Katie" that is listed on the 1900 census for the Valiante household of Michele and Antonia Valiante. I have sent off the request for that birth certificate to NYC records.

Thank you very much for the assistance.

[suanj]

hoping helpful! suanj

[whymse]

I have been pouring over these census records while I wait for additional films to come to the FHC in Sydney, Australia. (As an interesting side note the charge for films in Sydney is $5AU, which is just a bit under $5US, even though they would need to be mailed in from the US in many cases)

It appears that between 1900 and 1910, my GGGF bought the property at 145 Prospect St in Brooklyn, which doesn't appear to exist any more based on google maps, etc.
Does anyone have any experience in getting deeds or mortgages from old houses like that? Being overseas I have no chance of doing the search in person, and the Register's office in Brooklyn appears to only have records from 1966 on indexed and online.
I have read that sometimes deeds or mortgages could sometimes give information.

Also, does anyone know about whether a non-naturalized person could purchase homes at that point? Nowadays they can with a SS#, but was it different then? I still don't know about naturalization status, and will have a long time to wait before I find any information on that.


Thanks all for any assistance.

[BillieDeKid]

Here is a 1911 map of Brooklyn and 145 Prospect street is roughly the intersection of York and Jay.

http://www.bklyn-genealogy-info.com/Map/Man.1911.html

Scroll to the very bottom of the page, look at the dark line for the Man. bridge and also follow the line for the Brooklyn bridge.........follow them to lower right and inbetween them you will see Jay......follow jay st back up to the man. bridge and you will see York......the very small block before York is Prospect. The word prospect is written from left to right but a bit difficult to read. Hope this helps you out.

And, here is the current 145 Prospect stree with a photo so you can see what it looks like today.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&q=145 ... 1&ct=title

Google orientation shows the streets running left to right and top to bottom.....the 1911 map has the correct orientation of N.

Regards
Elizabeth

[whymse]

Thanks for the maps. It looks like they tore the house at 145 Prospect for the Brooklyn/Queens Expressway.
I actually bit the bullet and am having a title search done on the house in the hopes that a deed & mortgage comes up that shows some more information, and potentially a more "legal" spelling of my GGGF's name that I can trust more than the ever-changing census forms.

[whymse]

Hello,

I received an amazingly fast response to my question of military records for my GGGF Michele Valiante from Salerno, and received the following response:

Il nominativo esatto è Valiante Michele di Raffaele e Di Santolo Giufasia nato ad Ascea l'1/5/1858 registrato nel volume 3B nr.26 . Qualora fosse interessato a ricevere una copia della lista di leva dovrà farci pervenire la somma di € 6,00 (sei) tramite Western union o Money Gram

Is this saying that Michele Valiante has parents Raffaele & Giufasia, and he was born on 1/5/1858 in Ascea?
This doesn't fit with the LDS IGI records, but it's an avenue worth pursuing.

Thanks in advance for the help.

[BillieDeKid]

Good luck with the title search and let us know what you find out.