I have posted before on this forum that I am currently doing a 1948 case.
I received some great info from the nice people on this forum! Since then, I was told something rather confusing by an Italian attorney and my local consulate (San Francisco).
I had an established 1948 case attorney (who's name has been mentioned on this board a few times with positive feedback) take a look at what I thought was a second 1948 case in my paternal line.
Instead, he told me that I qualify to apply through the consulate.
I shall outline it here:
Paternal great grandfather: 1897-1975 (born in the US)
Paternal great grandmother: 1899-1976 (born in the US)
They both married in 1919.
My great grandmother's father was an Italian who naturalized in 1900 (one year after her birth)
Now, I was under the assumption from what I've read on here that if the Italian ascendant is a woman it is always a 1948 case.
I was also under the assumption that if the naturalization occurred before 1912 (my GGM's father in this case), that citizenship was automatically cancelled out for the ENTIRE family.
Despite this, this is what the attorney told me:
"Mr. -omitted- was naturalized in 1900 after Mrs. -omited's- birth in 1899. Mrs. -omitted- per birth was already a US citizen but his father did not legally transmitted her the citizenship acquired as he obtained it after her birth. Mrs. -omitted- then kept the Italian line open through her making you also eligible to apply for your citizenship through paternal line via the Consulate."
Confused, I then contacted the Italian consulate in San Francisco.
After giving them all the relevant information I asked them:
"my great great grandfather was born in Italy and naturalized when my great grandmother was 1.
Am I eligible to apply through the consulate?"
To which the consulate then responded:
"You need to start from the first ancestor born in Italy, which is your great great grandfather. You are eligible but you will need to start with you great grandfather"
I'm awfully confused on this topic and I would greatly appreciate your thoughts!
Attorney says citizenship by descent?
Re: Attorney says citizenship by descent?
Aside from the 1912 issue, if ggm married in 1919, she probably had her child before 1948 so it would still be a 1948 case.
I’m not sure how pre-1912 naturalizations are viewed in Italian courts, but a pre-1948 birth to an Italian woman always means a court case.
I’m not sure how pre-1912 naturalizations are viewed in Italian courts, but a pre-1948 birth to an Italian woman always means a court case.
Re: Attorney says citizenship by descent?
This is exactly what I raised to the attorney and to the consulate yet they are still telling me it is a normal administrative case to be brought to the consulate.mler wrote: 05 Sep 2020, 12:31 Aside from the 1912 issue, if ggm married in 1919, she probably had her child before 1948 so it would still be a 1948 case.
I’m not sure how pre-1912 naturalizations are viewed in Italian courts, but a pre-1948 birth to an Italian woman always means a court case.
I wonder why that is?
Re: Attorney says citizenship by descent?
My guess is that he is seeing only that your ggm obtained citizenship through her father, making it a male line. He doesn’t follow through, however, and ignores the fact that though your ggm obtained her citizenship through a male line, subsequent generations follow her, so the line converts to female.
The problem, I think, is that although lawyers know the law well and can navigate the court system for us, they sometimes think in generalities and don’t always recognize the unique aspects of a case. No one knows your case as well as you do. In my dealings with attorneys (for me, primarily real estate), I have often had to point out specifics which they had either overlooked or had not previously noted. We need lawyers to handle our cases, but occasionally clients need to explain things that may be specific to our situation.
In your discussion with the consulate, you need to emphasize two key facts:
- a pre-1912 naturalization
- the year your ggm had the child you hope continues the line
The problem, I think, is that although lawyers know the law well and can navigate the court system for us, they sometimes think in generalities and don’t always recognize the unique aspects of a case. No one knows your case as well as you do. In my dealings with attorneys (for me, primarily real estate), I have often had to point out specifics which they had either overlooked or had not previously noted. We need lawyers to handle our cases, but occasionally clients need to explain things that may be specific to our situation.
In your discussion with the consulate, you need to emphasize two key facts:
- a pre-1912 naturalization
- the year your ggm had the child you hope continues the line
Re: Attorney says citizenship by descent?
This is what I find puzzling because those two key facts you speak of:mler wrote: 05 Sep 2020, 16:40 My guess is that he is seeing only that your ggm obtained citizenship through her father, making it a male line. He doesn’t follow through, however, and ignores the fact that though your ggm obtained her citizenship through a male line, subsequent generations follow her, so the line converts to female.
The problem, I think, is that although lawyers know the law well and can navigate the court system for us, they sometimes think in generalities and don’t always recognize the unique aspects of a case. No one knows your case as well as you do. In my dealings with attorneys (for me, primarily real estate), I have often had to point out specifics which they had either overlooked or had not previously noted. We need lawyers to handle our cases, but occasionally clients need to explain things that may be specific to our situation.
In your discussion with the consulate, you need to emphasize two key facts:
- a pre-1912 naturalization
- the year your ggm had the child you hope continues the line
Pre-1912 naturalization
Pre-1948 birth of her child
I emphasized those very clearly in my correspondence with both the attorney and the citizenship office at the consulate.
Either I just happened to stumble upon two incompetent people or there's something you and I don't know yet.
It's also worth noting that my local consulate has a FAQ page about jure sanguinis and not once is there any mention of a 1912 rule.
They also claim that 1948 cases are only necessary when the Italian lineage comes from your mother's side.
Link (https://conssanfrancisco.esteri.it/cons ... LIGIBILITY)
The only things I have found that speak of a 1912 rule are forums like this one and articles about Italian citizenship by descent.
I also found an article by an Italian attorney speaking about the 1912 rule no longer being applied by the consulates. (https://www.italianpapers.it/1620/loss- ... ue-update/)
Strange stuff, I've been contacting more lawyers but since it's the weekend I suppose I have some time to wait.
Re: Attorney says citizenship by descent?
I did follow your link and found this on the SF consulate site:
“Italian citizenship by descent through MATERNAL ascendants was only possible starting 01 January 1948. As such, the right to citizenship can be passed from a mother to her child AFTER that date.”
Thus if your ggm who married in 1919 had her child after 1948, it is a consular case. This is, of course, what we have always known. A before-1948 birth means a court case. If you were told otherwise by someone at the consulate, the person is not well informed.
The 1912 issue was one that popped up several years ago, ironically beginning at the SF consulate. I will do more research and see what I can find. If they are no longer applying this rule, it will open things up for more people.
“Italian citizenship by descent through MATERNAL ascendants was only possible starting 01 January 1948. As such, the right to citizenship can be passed from a mother to her child AFTER that date.”
Thus if your ggm who married in 1919 had her child after 1948, it is a consular case. This is, of course, what we have always known. A before-1948 birth means a court case. If you were told otherwise by someone at the consulate, the person is not well informed.
The 1912 issue was one that popped up several years ago, ironically beginning at the SF consulate. I will do more research and see what I can find. If they are no longer applying this rule, it will open things up for more people.
Re: Attorney says citizenship by descent?
Ok, this is a direct quote from the Italian Embassy in Washington DC:
“There some exceptions to the general rule. For example:
1. Ascendants who were naturalized U.S. citizens before June 14, 1912, cannot transmit citizenship, even if their children were born prior to their naturalization;
2. Italian women were not granted the right to transmit their citizenship to their children until 1948. Therefore, applicants who were born prior to January 1st, 1948, can claim Italian citizenship only from their paternal line.”
.........
This is exactly what you and I assumed to be true. I believe the miscommunication may be in the misuse of the terms “paternal line” and “maternal line.”
For example, in my case, my citizenship is derived from my gf and father, a paternal line. My son, however, obtained citizenship through me so his line was a maternal line even though it was his ggf who was the initial Italian. Only if he applied through my husband, would it have been his paternal line.
“Maternal” and “paternal” mean mother and father—not distant ancestors—so if you trace citizenship through your father’s family, it is a paternal line; if you trace citizenship through your mother’s family, it is a maternal line. Each new generation follows that pattern. So the terms “maternal” and “paternal” often change with each generation.
“There some exceptions to the general rule. For example:
1. Ascendants who were naturalized U.S. citizens before June 14, 1912, cannot transmit citizenship, even if their children were born prior to their naturalization;
2. Italian women were not granted the right to transmit their citizenship to their children until 1948. Therefore, applicants who were born prior to January 1st, 1948, can claim Italian citizenship only from their paternal line.”
.........
This is exactly what you and I assumed to be true. I believe the miscommunication may be in the misuse of the terms “paternal line” and “maternal line.”
For example, in my case, my citizenship is derived from my gf and father, a paternal line. My son, however, obtained citizenship through me so his line was a maternal line even though it was his ggf who was the initial Italian. Only if he applied through my husband, would it have been his paternal line.
“Maternal” and “paternal” mean mother and father—not distant ancestors—so if you trace citizenship through your father’s family, it is a paternal line; if you trace citizenship through your mother’s family, it is a maternal line. Each new generation follows that pattern. So the terms “maternal” and “paternal” often change with each generation.
Re: Attorney says citizenship by descent?
An attorney specializing in immigration law might explain that citizenship by descent allows individuals to claim citizenship from a parent or grandparent who was born in a specific country, often without having to physically reside there. This process can be complex, as the requirements vary by country, and documentation proving the ancestral link is essential. While navigating legal procedures for citizenship, it's important to ensure that all related paperwork is accurate and timely, much like the careful attention a custom home builder gives to every detail in constructing a personalized home. Both processes require expert guidance to avoid costly mistakes and ensure a successful outcome.
