communes in Palermo Ufficio 1 & 2

[mark4440@comcast.net]

Hi,

Can someone help, if you don't mind, please?

I'm trying to find my grandfather's original birth certificate, etc.

According to Ancestry-dot-com he was born in Ufficio 1 while his sister was born in Ufficio 2.

Does anyone know which commune's were located in these 2 Ufficio's in 1902?

https://www.ancestry.com/discoveryui-co ... cessSource

TIA

[AngelaGrace56]

Hi Mark

This is what I understand and I may be completely wrong. Ufficio 1 and Ufficio 2 were separate "offices” set up within the city of Palermo. The city of Palermo, because of its size and the huge volume of bdms was divided into sections/districts, the four main ones, which I am most familiar with, being Sant’ Agata, Santa Cristina, Santa Ninfa, Sant’Olivia, and then there were nineteen others, but I don’t know which districts were included in Ufficio 1 and which were included in Ufficio 2. Anyways, I’m 99% sure your family were born in Palermo City itself and not another comune. I don’t have access to Ancestry and so I don’t know exactly what you’ve posted here so I may be wrong. You might want to take a screen shot of the image and post it here. I also can’t access the antenati site as it seems to be down today.

If you don’t have any joy locating the birth records, maybe try emailing your request to: statocivile@comune.palermo.it

I did take a look on Family Search and located records there for the City of Palermo The following film contained limited records for 1902 for the "Sections" of Brancuccio and Tommaso Natale.
1902 Starts Here right at the end of the film at Image 2410: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903 ... cc=2051639

(I didn’t go right through the film because it was so long and I didn’t know exactly who I was looking for. It began with 1895 records belonging to the Section of Pallavicino. The next town was Palermo but it had Ufficio 2 on the cover. Then came Section (Palermo) Uditore. Then it swung back to 1893 Section (Palermo) Felde. There may have been more 1892 records on the film, and I’m almost wondering whether this film may have just been Ufficio 2 records? As I said I didn’t go right through the film.)

Anyways, I’ll leave this info with you and someone else might have further insight about this.

Angela

[mmogno]

@AngelaGrace56
In linea di massima l'Uff. 1 dovrebbe corrispondere alle precedenti sezioni di S.Agata e S.Cristina e l'Uff. 2 a quelle di S.Ninfa e S.Oliva.

https://www.tuttogenealogia.it/viewtopi ... =1&t=13528

[AngelaGrace56]

https://www.tuttogenealogia.it/viewtopi ... =1&t=13528
[/quote]

@AngelaGrace56
In linea di massima l'Uff. 1 dovrebbe corrispondere alle precedenti sezioni di S.Agata e S.Cristina e l'Uff. 2 a quelle di S.Ninfa e S.Oliva.

https://www.tuttogenealogia.it/viewtopi ... =1&t=13528

That's interesting. Thank you. I don't think they are on line for 1902. I've been looking at snippets of various films and only the outer borders are on line. The films aren't exactly in order either and it would take forever to go through each film.

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Mark, from what mmogno has said, referring to the link posted, it seems that the sections of S.Agata and S.Cristina generally corresponded to Ufficio 1 while those of S.Ninfa and S.Oliva/Olivia? corresponded to Ufficio 2.

Because the records were indexed years ago, they should be on a microfilm/s somewhere but I don’t recall them ever being online. (Perhaps they got damaged or hopefully are just yet to be digitised?) What you might like to do is write to Palermo, requesting a “copia integrale” of the two records, using the email address I posted earlier (unless someone has a better one). Write in Italian (I’m sure someone here will help you with the letter).

Best to you with this.

Angela

[mark4440@comcast.net]

Thank you both so very much, I really appreciate it! And Angela, you've been helping me out so much over the past few months, again thank you!
That should help narrow things down.
BTW, I found that on my grandmother's side, Martines, her grand parents were married in Sant' Ninfa and her ggrandparents were born in Sant' Oliva. I tried mapping the distance between the 2 communes but it seemed like it was a 1 hour train ride between the 2 towns, I'm not sure if both of those towns are still in existence.
I'll make a screen shot of that Ancestry document and send it on another post.

[mark4440@comcast.net]

Hi Angela. Hopefully my previous reply shows up because I don't see it now.
I tried posting a screen shot on here but it didn't work. I found the same info at a Family Search location yesterday but it showed the correct spelling of my grandfather's name, Luigi rather than Agl. That index was locked from regular users who search on their home computers. Let my try some other ways.

[mark4440@comcast.net]

Hi Angela,

Here's a link to my grandmother's grandparents wedding announcement on Antenati. I haven't got it translated yet but I'm hoping that maybe their children and grandchildren were born in the same commune. Their names are: Gaspare Martines & Concetta Marino and of course I can't read Italian but it appears that some of the birth certificates say, Sant' Ninfa. I also have a link to Concetta Marino's parents wedding announcement, who were married in Sant' Oliva, if you need that.

Thanks again!

https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12 ... 21/0JNMe92

[AngelaGrace56]

Hi Angela. Hopefully my previous reply shows up because I don't see it now.
I tried posting a screen shot on here but it didn't work. I found the same info at a Family Search location yesterday but it showed the correct spelling of my grandfather's name, Luigi rather than Agl. That index was locked from regular users who search on their home computers. Let my try some other ways.

Don't worry about posting the screen shot, Mark, I can't access the records at the moment anyway. Thanks for trying.

Angela

[AngelaGrace56]

Hi Angela,

Here's a link to my grandmother's grandparents wedding announcement on Antenati. I haven't got it translated yet but I'm hoping that maybe their children and grandchildren were born in the same commune. Their names are: Gaspare Martines & Concetta Marino and of course I can't read Italian but it appears that some of the birth certificates say, Sant' Ninfa. I also have a link to Concetta Marino's parents wedding announcement, who were married in Sant' Oliva, if you need that.

Thanks again!

https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12 ... 21/0JNMe92

This is such a great find!!! Well done.

I don’t know whether you realise it, but this is actually part of the marriage package, and on the following pages are the supporting documents as follows:

Birth Extract of the Groom (Gaspare Martines) (pages 677 and 678)): https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12 ... 21/wl6lO7E

Birth Extract of Bride (Concetta Marino) (pages 679 and 680):
https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12 ... 21/02qZlmy

Then on pages 681 and 682 it has the parents’ act of consent followed by the act of notification which resulted in there being no opposition to the marriage taking place, on pages 683, 684.

I would definitely post the marriage pubblication and two birth extracts for translation. It would be better to have the original birth records translated, if they are on line. Often the extracts have clerical error in them. Looking at the Act of Consent, it includes the grand parents names of the bride and groom, so having that information extracted will take you back another generation on both sides and assist in you locating further records.

(I hadn’t been able to access the antenati site for a few days so wasn’t sure what was there for Palermo. I’m understanding that the records are still being loaded there so keep watching for any later records.)

Angela

[mark4440@comcast.net]

Wow, that's awesome, Angela! I'm not sure why the replies don't show up sometimes after I click on, Submit. Any ways, when I had Google translate, Matrimoni, processetti it states that it's "Wedding Trials." So I'm assuming that these documents confirm that the bride and groom are who they say they are and that the parents approve of the marriage, as well as the publication gives someone in town a chance to object to the wedding.
I believe that the actual wedding takes place 2-4 months after the processetti? So which search method would I use to find the actual marriage certificate?
Thanks again, I really appreciate it!

[AngelaGrace56]

Wow, that's awesome, Angela! I'm not sure why the replies don't show up sometimes after I click on, Submit. Any ways, when I had Google translate, Matrimoni, processetti it states that it's "Wedding Trials." .....

Just a quick reply:

After you have written your reply, try clicking first on “preview” and that way you will know that your reply is visible, then if it looks okay click on “submit”. I think I had the same issue at one point so this is what I now do each time.

While google translate has its place, it’s not always accurate, especially where Civil Records are concerned. “Matrimoni processetti” are “marriage supplements”. Another term you might see would be “matrimoni allegati” (i.e. marriage attachments). You might find the following link to “Italian Genealogical Word List” interesting and helpful: https://www.familysearch.org/en/wiki/It ... _Word_List

Edit to Add: After you have clicked on "Submit", look up at the address bar where it says ItalianGenealogy.com and you will notice a little dot swinging from side to side - wait until it stops swinging and then you should see your latest post.

Angela

[mark4440@comcast.net]

Very good, thanks again for your advise!

[AngelaGrace56]

I believe that the actual wedding takes place 2-4 months after the processetti?
So which search method would I use to find the actual marriage certificate?

I'm not exactly sure how long it took to gather all the supplementary documents. It would depend on how many documents were required and whether both prospective spouses were born in the marriage town. If they were needing extracts of death records for deceased parents and grandfathers, and/or death acts of former spouses, notarised documents etc then it may have taken a bit longer, but I think that for example, in this case, when only the birth records of the prospective spouses were required, because both sets of parents were still living, it probably would not have taken too long..... although we are talking about Palermo??? Maybe someone else can chime in on this one.

Re your second question there about searching for the actual marriage certificate:
Usually, I locate the marriage record first and then look for the processetti when they are on line because the marriage records generally have an index, whereas the processetti mostly don’t, and they can be a mission to find, because mostly they have not been filmed in order.

I’ve located the marriage record, which is basically the Marriage Promise with the church marriage details completed in the right column. This is how it was done in this time period. To locate the record I just clicked on Archivio di Stato di Palermo, then Stato civile della Restaurazione, then Palermo (Sezione Santa Ninfa) (oggi Palermo) then Stato civile della restaurazione, then Matrimoni, then 1861. I’ve translated it for you so you won’t have to post the Promise to Marry that’s included in the processetti.

Marriage Promise No 230
Palermo: 13 September 1861

Appearing were:

Gaspare Martines, 24 yo, born in Palermo, a falegname (carpenter), living via S. Giuliano, son of Giuseppe, a trafficante (dealer/merchant), and of Antonia Nasta, both living therein

And

Concetta Marino, 20 yo, born in Palermo, via Signoruzzo, daughter of Tommaso (Marino), Sensale? (Agent/Broker/Mediator) and of Maria Antonia Tantella living therein

Then it includes a list of the documents included in the processetti and the names of the witnesses to the marriage.

On the right side column is entered the church marriage details.

The marriage took place in the Parish of S. Ippolito on 15? September 1861.

https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12 ... 48/04kmebQ

(There are Church Records on line at Family Search which are searchable but I don't think they would add any further detail

Angela

[mark4440@comcast.net]

Wow, thank you so much for the information and for translating it, Angela!! That's very helpful and something that I didn't have, Gaspare's parents! Do I still need to put the the birth records on the website for translation? Will the birth records show the commune that they were born in, besides Palermo and their date of births?
Also, you said that Gaspare was living via S. Giuliano; is that the name of the street that he lived on in Catania? Do you know what commune that is in? And for Concetta, I found that street it in the middle of Sicily but I couldn't figure out what commune that was.

Thanks again, Angela!