Ready to file in Boston -> Application Submitted 10/28/20

[Mulé]

I have been researching and gathering documents since the 1996. I have been working on and off on this project for more than 10 years. I think I have finally gathered the last of the required documents. I have everything with an apostille, just not translated yet.

Today I called the Boston consulate to schedule an appointment. They asked tons of questions and advised me to apply for my mother in Philadelphia first, then follow on in Boston for my family. This seemed strange to me, so I asked the same question many times, just formed differently. I got the same answer each time, so there was definitely no misunderstanding. The consular worker explained that the majority of my documents were from the Pennsylvania area, where my mother still resides, that they would need to be sent to the Philadelphia consulate for verification anyhow, that I might as well just help her file the application there.

I am not sure if that means that I must wait until her citizenship is recognized before I can apply for mine and my family, or if the Philadelphia consulate will forward and attach my application for the Boston area? Or if they are two separate applications completely with double waiting times?

Anyone else have to split up a filing? Does this seem weird to anyone else?

It is my mother's paternal grandfather and paternal grandmother who are Italian.

1892 04 10 My maternal great grandfather's birth certificate from Italy.
1932 10 10 My maternal great grandfather's death certificate with Apostille. (PA)

1898 08 25 My maternal great grandmother's birth certificate from Italy. 1967 12 10 My maternal great grandmother's death certificate with Apostille. (PA)

1915 12 02 My great grandparents' marriage license application with Apostille. (PA)

My maternal great grandfather's certificate of naturalization OR statement of "No Records" . Documents:
+ 1930 Census - Showing status as Alien
+ 1920 Census - Showing status as Alien
+ National Archives no records of petition for Naturalization or Declaration of Intention.
+ 1942 Alien Registration card for my great grandmother.
+ Immigration and Naturalization Service Pittsburgh - No records response.
+ US Department of Homeland Security - US Citizenship and Immigration Services - No records response.
+ June 5 1917 Draft card showing great grandfather's status as Alien.
+ US District Court - Pittsburgh - No record response.

1917 03 23 My maternal grandfather's birth certificate with Apostille. (PA)
2003 07 12 My maternal grandfather's death certificate with Apostille. (PA)

1919 09 16 My maternal grandmother's birth certificate with Apostille. (PA)
2003 03 14 My maternal grandmother's death certificate with Apostille. (WV)

1941 06 05 My grandparents' marriage license application with Apostille. (PA)

1944 06 14 My mother's birth certificate with Apostille. (PA)

1944 08 18 My father's birth certificate with Apostille. (MD)

1965 05 29 My parents' marriage certificate with Apostille. (PA)

1974 07 09 My birth certificate with Apostille. (DE)
1972 07 26 My brother's birth certificate with Apostille. (DE)
1979 06 06 My sister's birth certificate with Apostille. (NJ)

1983 01 27 My spouse's birth certificate with Apostille. (MA)

2003 06 26 My marriage certificate with Apostille. (NH)

2003 12 14 My daughter's birth certificate with Apostille. (MA)
2003 12 14 My daughter's birth certificate with Apostille. (MA)
2008 09 24 My son's birth certificate from department of state, so no apostille. (Brazil)

I hope to hear from the Philadelphia consulate this week with an appointment time/date for my mother's application, otherwise I will ring them back. I am anxious to get this ball rolling.

I will try to keep this thread updated with any developments. If anyone has any questions or advice for me, please post or pm me.

thanks,

chris


P.S. Are we able to pick and choose which commune will register our documents? If so, I am thinking of using the commune in Sicily where I am still in contact with relatives instead of the commune where my mother's ancestors are from, will this be a problem? Is/Are there any negative connotations for using a "southern" commune? Would someone suggest having their documents registered at a super high tech commune with email like Genoa?

[Mulé]

I just got a call back from the consulate. The next available appointment is February 8th, 2011. Seriously, must seek other options. That is an extreme amount of time to wait for just the appointment, let alone the process to complete.

I previously held residency in Siena, Italy in 1993. It wasn't difficult to obtain, I even got a codice fiscali. I was wondering with all the new laws since then 1993, if anyone has any experience applying for jure sanguinis recognition while residing in Italy. I have search for posts/threads but haven't found any advice or anyone actually trying this route.

Circolare del Ministero dell’interno n. 32 del 13 giugno 2007
Soppressione del permesso di soggiorno per turismo. Iscrizione anagrafica dei discendenti di cittadini italiani per nascita.

Abolition of the residence permit for tourism. Registration of the descendants of Italian citizens by birth.

Circolare del Ministero degli Interni n. 28 del 23 dicembre 2002
Iscrizione anagrafica dei discendenti di cittadini italiani per nascita, per il riconoscimento della cittadinanza italiana

Registration of the descendants of Italian citizens by birth, for the recognition of Italian citizenship.

Has anyone obtained residency then filed for citizenship recognition? Any experiences?

[Mulé]

Today I had an appointment in Boston. I met with the official at 9am. My brother accompanied me to the appointment. It truly was just a document review. It took about 40 minutes to go over all my documents. I had included a handful of translations as well. All of my original documents were reviewed and I took notes on the discrepancies and anything that might have been missing. The consulate did not keep any of the originals. I was told I only needed to submit the "missing" 1930's census. I had copies of the 1920's census on hand in my documents. When I got home, I got the 1930s census, printed it out and put it in the mail with a cover letter for inclusion into my "case" review. I was told after the official reviews my photocopied set of documentation in more detail and consults the consulate general about the 2 minor discrepancies, he will call if the determination is that I am eligible to apply. I know that I am eligible and not sure why I wasn't able to apply on the spot, maybe it was the missing 1930s census, as I had 2 distinct certified letters of non-existence of naturalization and the PA federal courts searches, the local court searches, and local INS search from 1997 along with the NARA searches. I think I have satisfied that requirement of proof that he never naturalized. The 1920s census shows "AL" for alien, and my m-GF was born in 1917. The 1930s census shows the same "AL", so nothing new there. In either case he noticed the 2 name discrepancies, on my m-GGF's 1932 death certificate, the maiden name of his wife has an "a" where none exist, and my wife's last name had a space on her birth certificate where no space exists on the marriage. I wasn't looking forward to making another trip to the consulate in a month or so after the review. It did look like there were other documents or applications in the same state, ready for review. I hope to have a follow up call by the end of the month.

[tonyric]

Don't worry about it, from what I have seen first hand and from others 2-4 visits to the Consulate is not abnormal. I will end up with 4 including picking up my passport next Thursday. The fact he didn't turn you away means the minor issues are just that, minor. At worst the one for your GGM name on your GGF's death certificate (which most likely won't be an issue) and your marriage certificate is correctable. Sounds like your appointment went well to me and do keep in contact with him or he will forget, he has a lot of us he is handling.

[Mulé]

Yeah overall I am happy to have finally been in to see someone about this decade long project. I will be excited to finally create my application and get in the queue. I will check back with him before the end of the month if I haven't heard anything.

Since I wasn't yet able to apply, I didn't bring up my desire to have my documents registered in a different comune than my ancestral comune.

[nytgal]

Ah yes, Boston. I have been once and also had some discrepancies that although anxious to get this done I understood the reason. I was pleased with my visit and we laughed over my grandfather's apparent lack to register as an alien. That is my only hold up at this point.

I have a "no record" from the USGIS but he asked that I go back again. I only started this process a little over a year ago so in that sense I'm lucky. We realize he may have dodged the authorities and never registered and that he may have to present my application without the AR card. I truly think he wants to present a fully documented application to the Consulate General that will be approved and not rejected. I also think they don't want to make the process too easy and thus ensure they accept people who really desire dual citizenship.

That being said, I need to wait another 6 months for a process I've already gone through just to check with USCIS again for my grandfather's A file.

Good luck to you.

[Mulé]

Thank you, good luck to you as well. I wish I had my act together enough to have gathered everything in 1 year. It took me just 1 year, mostly waiting time for a relative to "help" me with the court order. After a year of me pestering back and forth every 2 weeks about the status and progress of their offered "help", as they worked in the very court house I required, they completely fell apart and said nothing was done, ever. I was shocked that she wasted a year "helping" me. Well at least it was a non-blood relative, my 1st cousin's wife, to let me down. Doesn't feel good in either case. So I did more research and used samples from google searches to make my own court order. Got it in front of the judge and then submitted it to the department of health. They denied it and had it vacated , they had revisions, so I made those and got a new court order in front of the judge (all this took about 4 weeks) and they then created my delayed birth certificate for my m-GF. One of the last physical documents I needed, besides the USCIS certified non-existence of naturalization record which I recently got a month or so ago.

I am going to work on the two name discrepancies that they brought up now anyhow, so even if it isn't an issue and I am notified close to the end of the month, I will still have it completed to avoid any chance of waiting any longer. The easy one is my marriage certificate, which I am comfortable not even registering immediately as my wife won't apply for jure matrimoni anyhow. The other is to alter the wife's maiden name spelling on a death certificate of my m-GGF. Simply spelled incorrectly, not sure how hard to fix in PA. I am looking into it now.

I forgot to mention, the official was curious as to my other note paper I brought with me in my folder to the appointment, and kept motioning me to hand over all the documents I brought. I kept saying these were just for my notes and such, but he insisted on seeing them. I was using the back of one such document to take notes on items and discrepancies he was pointing out during the document review. A few documents were Circolare's and/or Messagio's printed from links and such in other threads about the laws and processes/requirements. He read some and asked why do I have these and where did I get them from. He didn't really believe me that I could print them from the internet. I brought my complete research file with me, and after a decade and a half it is quite large. I guess I should have only brought the bare minimum and nothing that I didn't want to disclose. I just didn't want to leave anything behind, like what happened with the 1930s census, which I had as PDF and not hard copied, which I promptly re-downloaded and printed to mail.

He also asked many questions about costs and the process of getting my "no records" letters as if to test the authenticity of my process or documents. He even made a copy of the USCIS return letter's address that I had in my packet that my certified letter of non-existence of naturalization came from, somewhere in D.C.

I think I nailed that one home though, as I had NARA's no record, 2 USCIS certified no records for 2 different officials, 1 INS no records from 1997's search, no records from federal courts in PA, the no records from the local courts in PA and the 1920 census. He only requested the 1930s census which I sent the same day to his attention. It will be news to me, and a great shock should I not be eligible to apply, as I already know that I am an Italian citizen just awaiting recognition.

[nytgal]

I had the wrong format local birth, marriage and death certificates that was able to get easily. I think I'll probably need to get some name corrections too as well as the apostilles but I have to go back to him first so he can look at all the new certificates.

I enjoyed my visit and so far am not discouraged and am planning on several more back and forths.

As you stated, "I already know that I am an Italian citizen just awaiting recognition,"

Good luck to you too. Please post any updates and I'll do the same. Thanks.

[nytgal]

Mule,

One question, you stated that you had the NARA "no record" information and the census records. Did you just bring copies of the census records off the internet or did you get them certified from town/city hall? And the NARA "no record" was that a certified copy or just off the internet?

Thanks.

[Mulé]

The 1920 census record was just a print out on large pieces of paper from the NARA. The 1930s which I printed out at my brothers house was just 8.5x11, which I also enlarged to 38% to tile on two pages with a 1" overlap.

The NARA "no records" has a sticker & stamp on the response. I have uploaded it here as PDF.

[nytgal]

Thanks so much. This is good information.

[Mulé]

No problems. I also find actual examples more helpful too.

[Mulé]

I had a follow up call from the consulate.

There is a concern with my wife's last name. There is a space between letters that shouldn't be, so it is causing a concern. No mis-spelling, just a space between an "A" and a "D". I am checking with MA to see what can be done to correct this. The county clerk is right now checking the original and due to call me back in 1 hour. I called MA vital records yesterday after my call, and they didn't indicate there was much they could do about this.

With all the proofs that I supplied that my m-ggF never naturalized:
1. USCIS no records certification
2. USCIS no records certification with 3 alternate spellings
3. NARA no records
4. FOIA no records
5. County court no records
6. 1997 INS Pittsburgh office no records letter
7. 1920 Census
8. 1930 Census
9. Pittsburgh US District Court no records letter with 4 alternate spellings
10. WWI Draft Card showing Alien (about 5 months after gf's birth)

they still want more proof. They want me to locate a green card application or naturalization information on my m-ggM.

Anyone know where to look for that? I have a request in to USCIS genealogy program for documents. I will check the NARA again for my m-ggM. Most of my focus has been on my m-ggF as he is the blood line.

Edit: fixed p-ggM/F to maternal-greatgrandMother/Father which is now correct.

[johnnyonthespot]

They want me to locate a green card application or naturalization information on my m-ggM.
...

Most of my focus has been on my m-ggF as he is the blood line.

What the heck do they want that for??

Sometimes the consulate's demands make no sense at all.

[Mulé]

Not sure. They still want some kind of green card application or proof.

They tell me it will indicate the status of the spouse (m-ggF) on her application (m-ggM), another proof that my m-ggF never naturalized.

I think I have done the due diligence with the information I have gathered to date, even checking of alias/alternate spellings.

The USCIS certification alone should be the authoritative response, let alone the additional USCIS certification with every possible alternate spelling from every census record and documents along the way, just to cover all bases.

I am doing the research none the less because that is what they asked for. But I am not sure 11 proofs are better than 10. How many is enough at this point? It is actually more proofs when you consider the wife's alien registration card in 1941, m-ggF died in 1932. So if he naturalized while they were married (after 1915), she wouldn't be an alien in 1941. (this is up in the air for me as to her status, another post about her father's naturalization after she was married - is she naturalized?)

Craziness all around. My goal is to apply this month. It doesn't look promising at this time.

Also note: I asked about registering my documents in a comune other than the ancestor comune and told it was not possible. I was told that they would have no information about the ancestor and could not register the line. Not sure how that holds up with what information they send to the comune and what is registered. Will my m-gf and my mother's birth certificates be sent to the comune and registered? I read in the forums that they were not. I am not sure I want to be registered in that ancestor comune. So what is my option, go to Italy and establish residency in the town I would like to register in, then apply there? They register the documents in that town in that case right? or are they sent back to the ancestor's comune regardless. Anyone gone through this or know the answer and can save me the expensive airfare.