Willing to do the work if you guys think I qualify

[paraitaliano]

Thanks again for this information sforza!

FYI = Coming at it from an aerial view, so to speak, most Ghetti's in Italy today are in Northern Italy, the overwhelming density being in Emilia Romagna, particularly in the provinces of FC (Forli-Casena) and RA (Ravenna). There are no Italians using the alternative spellings of Ghette or Ghettie in Italy today.

[paraitaliano]

Hey johnnyonthespot,

I appreciate your providing this information in this thread. Based off all of my research and conversations with others who have also gone through his process this is the interpretation I understand as well.

It seems some may have encountered resistance from particular consulates in the past which could certainly lead to wider spread confusion.

What do you think about doing everything in person in Italy?

Thanks in advance!

If he left before 1861 he wasnt an Italian citizen when he arrived. Are you certain what year he arrived?

Hi, Alicia.

I just wanted to take a moment to clarify this point:

a) modern "Italy" (or Italia, if you prefer) did not exist prior to the unification of several city-states of the peninsula in 1861

b) at the time of unification, all citizens of the various city-states were automatically granted citizenship in the new, unified, country of Italy/Italia

c) if a citizen of one of those city-states, the Kingdom of Sardinia or the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies for example, left the area and died prior to unification, then he was never a citizen of the new Italy and his descendants have no claim to Italian citizenship. Note: this is the case in the US, where, generally speaking, his descendants born on US soil would have had US citizenship. In other countries which may not have had jus soli citizenship, it seems possible to me that a descendant born prior to 1861 would have had his father's citizenship (Sardinian or whatever) and thus rule b) above would apply; I have never seen this discussed so do not know for certain

d) if a citizen of one of those city-states left the area and became a naturalized citizen of another country prior to unification, then he was never a citizen of the new Italy and his descendants have no claim to Italian citizenship

e) however, if a citizen of one of those city-states left the area but was alive and had not taken on another citizenship, then he automatically became a citizen of the new Italy; any other solution would have left this person "stateless" - a man with no citizenship in any country whatsoever and not a good thing

This is my understanding of the matter.

[paraitaliano]

Thank you both for these resources as this will certainly help me in narrowing down my search!

This forum is amazing and its members speak to this!

[paraitaliano]

Update re 3xGGGF birthplace:

I was able to find this very insightful website: http://www.piccioli.com/genealogia/search.php

It seems Vincenzo may not have been a common of a first name for Ghetti's in the early 1800's but what you can see on that link and select both Individual and Family names then input "ghetti" is that according to this DB most Ghetti's in the late 1700's / early 1800's were in Mondolfo (PU) or Caminate di Fano (PU) which don't seem to far from where the highest concentration of modern day Ghetti's are living.

I think this will be a good place to start looking for the birth records. On that topic, what has been the experience of this forum of the best angle to approach this?

Thanks again!

[mler]

Wish I could help with this, but I only went back as far as my gf, and I knew where he was born. I did, however, want to address your question about applying in Italy.

You can only apply in Italy if you legally reside in Italy; you cannot do it as a tourist. Applying in Italy is sometimes a good approach, but it is not guaranteed to be better than applying at a consulate. Some comuni are more familiar with the jure sanguinis process; others are not. Some will insist on sending documents back to the consulate that serves the jurisdiction in which they were issued in order to verify their authenticity.

Whether naturalizations before 1912 are red flagged by certain Italian comuni is another question you must consider. This would certainly be a problem if, for example, you had NYC documents that the comune decides to send to the NY consulate for verification.

For these reasons, and because yours is a complex application that traces citizenship back five generations, you may be better off applying at home.

[ForzaItaliaPgh]

I just want to second what Mler said. You CANNOT just decide to apply in Italy. You must apply at the consulate under whose jurisdiction you live. To apply in Italy, you'd have to legally reside in Italy. If you want to, you can go to Italy to start the process, then sign over a power of attorney to a citizenship attorney and have them finish the process for you. I have never gone down this road myself, but it has been discussed several times on the boards, most frequently when talking about Atty. Luigi Paiano. I haven't used him, nor do I know of anyone who has, and he seems expensive, so I am NOT vouching for him, but you can look into this more at his website

http://www.luigipaiano.com/eng/

[paraitaliano]

mler and ForzaItaliaPgh, thanks fore the information regarding applying in Italy. I plan on taking some sort of Italian Language course and residing in Italy during this process so this just reaffirms my desire to do that =)

Update on my findings:

I found a post on Ancestry.com ( http://boards.ancestry.com/surnames.mar ... 36/mb.ashx ) that has the following information

"Iam not related to the Marchettis but to the Lemonas (Lemon in USA), Massinas (Massa in USA)and Ghettis. However I do have some info on the above Marchetti: Angelo N. Lemona b abt 1844 in Faenza (could be Maenza?) Italy came to the USA on a 60 foot sailing vessel, owned by Frank and Lazarus Piazza, 3 others on the boat were John Massina, Frank Marchetti, and Vincenzio Ghetti. Lemona left Italy to avoid the draft, I do not know why the others came. They landed in New Orleans then migrated to Copiah Co., MS. They opened up Tannerys, hotels and introduced the Italian tomato to the USA. My ancestors (above listed) remained in MS. I do not know if the Marchettis or Piazzas remained in MS or migrated elsewhere. Just thought this tidbit might be of some interest to one that might be related to Frank Marchetti. If this rings a bell to anyone, please email l****m@mai.com, and if anyone has anything further to add, I would love to hear. Many thanks!!"

This is without a doubt the boat my 3xGGF came over on as he settled in Copiah MS around the same time and the rest of the pieces fall into place. Based on this information it seems that the area of Italy suggested by sforza and johnnyonthespot recommend may prove to be right on target.

Will keep you all updated!

Thanks for everything!!

[EDIT: Updated with more relevant information]

[ForzaItaliaPgh]

In bocca del lupo! (Italian for "break a leg" lit. "In the Wolf's Mouth) Good Luck.

[sforza]

However I do have some info on the above Marchetti: Angelo N. Lemona b abt 1844 in Faenza (could be Maenza?) Italy came to the USA on a 60 foot sailing vessel

Faenza sounds right. It's in RA, Emilia Romagna. Maenza is outside of Rome.

[paraitaliano]

Grazie!

In bocca del lupo! (Italian for "break a leg" lit. "In the Wolf's Mouth) Good Luck.

[kontessa]

Just want to second mler's concern with the 1912 eliminator becoming a problem if applying in Italy. Not all comunes follow this, but many do, and not just if they have received a 'heads-up' from a stateside consulate. One of the first questions posed by my comune referenced the date my ancestor naturalized as a US citizen. You would have to do some thorough research about this before deciding on WHERE to apply in Italy.

IMO, it is possible to apply in Italy without signing power of attorney over to another individual. Again, you would have to have your case tight before departing the US - documents set straight, be very familiar with how the process unfolds in Italy, and be able to take action on movement of your case almost immediately upon arrival. (Not easy, but possible.) Caveat...knowing exactly how your case should proceed is essential. However, then you must be prepared for everything to go sideways! Wanting to have everything finished in a short period of time is NOT realistic. It may happen, but you can never know from the outset.

Choosing the right comune is critical for you. Residency shouldn't be a problem if you and the comune are familiar with how to process your case. Once you had official residency and had your documents accepted, you should be able to leave. How you deal with potential problems that erupt after your departure is another story. Each case proceeds differently, and at varying lengths of time. There are NO guarantees, perhaps this is why it is a safer bet to apply where you are currently residing unless you have plenty of time and money for the sideways portion of the process.

In bocca al lupo to you as well.

[paraitaliano]

Hey kontessa,

Thanks for this information! I will certainly research the optimal location to file the application once it is ready. My plan is get all the documents, and then some, ready as well as consult with folks who have done this before at the same comune and make sure any known potential issues are managed before finally going to apply.

What happens after that should be interesting but I am always up for a fun ride

Just want to second mler's concern with the 1912 eliminator becoming a problem if applying in Italy. Not all comunes follow this, but many do, and not just if they have received a 'heads-up' from a stateside consulate. One of the first questions posed by my comune referenced the date my ancestor naturalized as a US citizen. You would have to do some thorough research about this before deciding on WHERE to apply in Italy.

IMO, it is possible to apply in Italy without signing power of attorney over to another individual. Again, you would have to have your case tight before departing the US - documents set straight, be very familiar with how the process unfolds in Italy, and be able to take action on movement of your case almost immediately upon arrival. (Not easy, but possible.) Caveat...knowing exactly how your case should proceed is essential. However, then you must be prepared for everything to go sideways! Wanting to have everything finished in a short period of time is NOT realistic. It may happen, but you can never know from the outset.

Choosing the right comune is critical for you. Residency shouldn't be a problem if you and the comune are familiar with how to process your case. Once you had official residency and had your documents accepted, you should be able to leave. How you deal with potential problems that erupt after your departure is another story. Each case proceeds differently, and at varying lengths of time. There are NO guarantees, perhaps this is why it is a safer bet to apply where you are currently residing unless you have plenty of time and money for the sideways portion of the process.

In bocca al lupo to you as well.

[paraitaliano]

Hey All,

I have continued to research the 1912 law and it seems this is a wide spread interpretation of the 1912 regulation amendments. However, it is just that: an interpretation.

It seems that some ( and as of recent more than some ) take this as meaning starting July 1st 1912 is when your Italian Citizenship was unaffected by a post-child-birth naturalization of the Father.

Others seem to render an interpretation that is "There were no laws specifically stating any different prior to 1912 so this just cleared up the waters." Which allows for retrogressive application of the 1912 555 law.

Just as in the US there are rules, regulations and laws passed every day that are open to this level of interpretation it will rest on the individual who is submitting the application to fight, lobby and petition the courts if needed for this sort of interpretation.

My Grandfather once told me ( coming from his very humble beginnings to being a highly regarded executive at a very large US Corporation for 30+ years) "Anything in life you believe in is worth fighting for. Only you know how much pain is worth taking to show this belief." ( paraphrased )

Regarding my right, and honest desire, to reacquire my Italian Citizenship I can firmly state that my pain tolerance is set to high

I will continue to keep you all updated as things progress.

[ForzaItaliaPgh]

That's the right attitude! You have to be ready to surmount some obstacles, but (if you qualify) it's a RIGHT not a gift from the consulate that you have to go begging for!

[mler]

You have a positive attitude and a willingness to work hard for this, but I worry a bit because I think that your confidence can set you up for a big disappointment if things do not work out. Keep that confidence, but be prepared for challenges along the way and a possible negative outcome.

There are several potential stumbling blocks. The first is the naturalization of your ggggf. If he naturalized and you have the papers to prove it, this is a plus. If you do not locate naturalization records, however, it will be difficult to convince a consulate and/or comune that naturalization did not take place because supporting documents will be difficult, if not impossible, to obtain. So keep your fingers crossed for naturalization records (at the right date, of course)

Do not take the 1912 law lightly. Yes, it is an interpretation but it is an interpretation that is widely, and unfortunately legitimately, accepted. Italian citizenship laws have not generally been applied retroactively--the 1948 law giving women the right to pass on citizenship and the 1992 law allowing dual citizenship being prime examples.

A third problem is the number of generations through which you trace citizenship. There is absolutely no generational limit to obtaining Italian citizenship, but there is a psychological barrier. Italians are less than thrilled with the large number of people seeking to establish dual citizenship especially if the connection to Italy is not a close one, and I strongly believe that the obstacles placed in the path of applicants partially stems from this ambivalence. Because of this, you will need impeccable documents with, hopefully, few or no discrepancies.

I hope that you are successful in your endeavor, but it's important to be realistic about some of the problems you may face so that you are prepared for potential objections and are ready to deal with them.

I wish you the best of luck.