citizenship possible after generations in the US

[mler]

When you go in to apply, you will need all the certificates. For an informational meeting, the dates are sufficient. The consulate in Berlin is likely to be less inundated with applicants than are the consulates in the US so it is entirely possible they would respond to a query by e-mail. This would be unusual in the States.

You will likely need translations for the documents you submit to the consulate for citizenship purposes since these documents are sent to the comune for registration. Most consulates allow you to submit translations you do yourself, and templates for several typical documents can be found on the forum at www.italiancitizenship.freeforums.org

You are correct about the procedure for apostilles. Your description seems like NYC.

[italianfrombuffalo]

apparently a cousin from my husband is working on the italian citizenship as well! nobody ever mentioned that to us. after he had his appointment in a few months, we can use all his documents!
btw, according to him, the great-greatgrandfather never naturalized, he has a letter from USCIS to prove that.

[johnnyonthespot]

btw, according to him, the great-greatgrandfather never naturalized, he has a letter from USCIS to prove that.

Fair warning to you and your husband's cousin: USCIS does not have any naturalization records pre-dating September, 1906. If there is a chance that your ancestor naturalized prior to that date, the consulate will require additional proof.

Actually, let me qualify that:

Consulates based in the US know all the ins and outs and quirks of US naturalization. They know about USCIS and 1906, they know that there are many different court systems in which an ancestor may have naturalized, they know that it is not unusual to have reports of no records found from several sources only to have records turn up from somewhere else.

For this reason, US-based consulates demand multiple levels of proof in cases of supposed non-naturalization. This normally entails:

a) US census records from both before and after the birth of the next-in-line which show that his/her father was still an alien

b) letters of No Record Found from USCIS, the US National Archives, and from the state and county courts which have jurisdiction over every location the Italian ancestor resided from the time he entred the US until the time of birth of the next-in-line child.

Now, will the Berlin-based consulate be so demanding? Good question! Some people who have applied directly in Italy found a bit easier going, most likely becasue the local authorities are not as familiar with the quirks of the US naturalization records keeping.

[italianfrombuffalo]

the cousin already has an appointment (NYC consulate) and they only thing he still needs is the greatgrandfather's birth certificate which cannot be found. other documents such as social security, passport application, military are not enough to the consulate. i also know that he submitted the 1910 US census that says "alien" and they can't be found in the 1900 census. i don't know if NY had a 1890 census. i asked the cousin too if he contacted NARA, counties (the family moved from one to the other so i would contact both counties), NY state and USCIS.

but would one get an appointment if there is still a doubt about the citizenship? but whatever he submitted as documents, we will use the same.

[jennabet]

He won't get anywhere without the birth certificate from Italy. It's the entire crux of the case. Nothing else will suffice, no matter where the application is made.

[italianfrombuffalo]

He won't get anywhere without the birth certificate from Italy. It's the entire crux of the case. Nothing else will suffice, no matter where the application is made.

he got that one. it is the greatgrandfather's birth certificate that is missing, he was the first one born in the US.

[jennabet]

he got that one. it is the greatgrandfather's birth certificate that is missing, he was the first one born in the US.

Maybe he was also born in Italy? If he lists "Alien" in 1910 Census, then he wasn't born in the USA and you will have to proceed from the great-grandfather and prove that he did not naturalize before his son was born.

[italianfrombuffalo]

Maybe he was also born in Italy? If he lists "Alien" in 1910 Census, then he wasn't born in the USA and you will have to proceed from the great-grandfather and prove that he did not naturalize before his son was born.

i thought i made everything clear so far. gr-gr-grandfather born in italy, emigrated to the us; gr-grandfather born in the us before (if...) naturalization of gr-gr-grandfather; following generations all born in the us. everything is documented except for the birth of the gr-grandfather (birth certificate not found at known birth place). all censuses state "born in NY" for the gr-grandfather.

[jennabet]

I know of a case where the family insisted a son was born in New York. As it turned out, however, he was brought to the US when he was two weeks old. Many immigrants got off the ships with infants. If you can't find an American birth certificate, this might be why. The census worker would have no way of knowing for sure where anyone was born.

[jennabet]

Where did great-great grandfather get married? If he married an Italian in Italy, did she immigrate with him at the same time 1889? If so, I find it unusual that the first child was not born until 1894 -- five years later. Back then, children were born within a year or two of marriage and then in steps, every 18 months to two years.

A more likely scenario is that the great-great grand-father may have immigrated in 1889 at age 19 and then gone back to Italy at some point to find a wife and the wife may have come to America on her own with an infant who was born in Italy. And this is why you can't find the great-grandfather's birth certificate.

I would try looking for the birth certificate in the Comune in Italy where the wife is from.

[trinasignoriello]

Category 5) your paternal or maternal grandparents were born in the United States from Italian parents and they never renounced their right to Italian citizenship. (Please note: the Italian mother can transfer her Italian citizenship only to children born after 01/01/1948).

i fall under this category and want to go through my great grandparemts, on my mother's side. the only issue is that my grandfather on my dad's side became an american citizen way back when. however, reading clearly, it seems like i can go straight through my mother's side of the family.

does anyone have any experience with this? Thanks!

[mler]

This is a common citizenship line. My son obtained citizenship through his ggf, my grandfather. I applied with him, but that does not change the procedure.

To go through the maternal line, you need to ensure that your ggf did not naturalize before his son/daughter was born (your gf/gm). And, of course, as you have already noted, any female in the line could not pass on citizenship before 1948.

[johnnyonthespot]

Also, the more generations, the more likely you are to run into discrepancies, some of which can be very difficult to correct.

If there is even a small chance that your paternal grandfather was still an Italian citizen at the time of your father's birth, you should definitely look into that lineage; you may find that is is the cleaner route.

[trinasignoriello]

right. that's the problem.. my ggp didn't become american citizens, but my GM was born 1910, my mom 1942, so I am not eligible.
Not fair.

[johnnyonthespot]

For what it is worth, here is the explanation:

The current Italian constitution came into effect on January 1, 1948. Among many other changes, this constitution greatly improved equality between the sexes; among other things, for the first time in its history, Italian women could now pass citizenship directly to their children. Prior to this date, citizenship was passed only by the father.

So, I know you feel that you have worked out the details, but it has happened in the past that we see something that a newbie does not. From your post above, I presume that your mother's father was not Italian, is that correct? And so, on your mother's side, you would have to go mother -> grandmother -> great-grandfather. If this is the case and your mother was born in 1942, then unfortunately this lineage will not work.

But, please, what about your father's side? Unless you know with absolute certainty that your father's father naturalized prior to his birth, you may still have a chance. DO NOT go by family lore or even the word of your grandfather/grandmother (if either is alive) as this information turns out to be wrong as often as it is correct. Until you have a document in hand which shows the actual date of naturalization, it is an open question.

Finally, what about your father's mother? Italian or not?