nessun
Re: Wish I had a time machine... dual citizenship roadblock!
If your mother changes her father's birthplace as "Italy" doesn't this negate his PA birth certificate?
It seems that no matter which way you go, you run into a problem. If you change his birthplace to Italy, you've got the naturalization problem. If you keep the PA birth certificate, you lose the connection to Italy. It seems your best bet is to try to prove he was not living with his parents, but I have no clue how you would go about doing this.
It seems that no matter which way you go, you run into a problem. If you change his birthplace to Italy, you've got the naturalization problem. If you keep the PA birth certificate, you lose the connection to Italy. It seems your best bet is to try to prove he was not living with his parents, but I have no clue how you would go about doing this.
Re: Wish I had a time machine... dual citizenship roadblock!
You're right. None of this is easy. The more I think of your situation, the more confusing it becomes. Your gf registered to vote in 1937. That would mean one of three things:
1. He considered himself to have naturalized with his father.
2. He naturalized on his own behalf in the intervening years.
3. He somehow was able to convince authorities in PA that he was a US citizen through birth.
If you do try to prove that he did not naturalize with his father, it will be difficult to explain how he ultimately did obtain US citizenship.
1. He considered himself to have naturalized with his father.
2. He naturalized on his own behalf in the intervening years.
3. He somehow was able to convince authorities in PA that he was a US citizen through birth.
If you do try to prove that he did not naturalize with his father, it will be difficult to explain how he ultimately did obtain US citizenship.
Re: Wish I had a time machine... dual citizenship roadblock!
cgiulia, a delayed birth certificate would have been necessary to apply for disability benefits, social security, pensions, etc. in 1973.
Your grand-father coming to America as an infant is most likely the reason for the discrepancy in where he was actually born. It sounds to me like he was born in Italy but aside from all the other discrepancies, the fact that he voted in a US election would be significant in Italy considering him to have lost his Italian citizenship because you have to be a US citizen to vote.
Regarding age of majority. In my case, the grand-father did get married at age 18 but the consulate stated specifically that at age 19 even if he were not married, he was not a minor and there is no controversy. I would tend to trust the information received from an Italian consulate.
Also individual states do not decide who is naturalized and who is not, what their ages are, etc. Immigration/Naturalization is a Federal matter. It's not a state matter so I would not bother considering the age of majority in Pennsylvania regarding your grand-father.
Your grand-father coming to America as an infant is most likely the reason for the discrepancy in where he was actually born. It sounds to me like he was born in Italy but aside from all the other discrepancies, the fact that he voted in a US election would be significant in Italy considering him to have lost his Italian citizenship because you have to be a US citizen to vote.
Regarding age of majority. In my case, the grand-father did get married at age 18 but the consulate stated specifically that at age 19 even if he were not married, he was not a minor and there is no controversy. I would tend to trust the information received from an Italian consulate.
Also individual states do not decide who is naturalized and who is not, what their ages are, etc. Immigration/Naturalization is a Federal matter. It's not a state matter so I would not bother considering the age of majority in Pennsylvania regarding your grand-father.
Re: Wish I had a time machine... dual citizenship roadblock!
........Children
Immigrant children, even today, receive their citizenship from their parents. Starting in 1790, children recieved derivative citizenship from their father (or mother in some cases). Derivative citizenship is defined as getting one's citizenship from another person. When the child's father became naturalized, his children under 16 (or 18, depending on the year) automatically became citizens. No paperwork was created. To prove his or her citizenship, the child would need his or her father's certificate of citizenship (or certificate of naturalization)........
Yeah! Exactly. And this is why the consulate told me the grand-father, even if not married, was NOT a minor at 19. Again, do not rely on individual states interpretation of age of majority. It's a Federal matter.
The case I'm working on now is for my fiancee's grand-father, but I obtained my own recognition in 2001 through the Philly consulate. You do not have to wait three months for your documents. Just google or call the Mid-Atlantic Regional Archives in Philadelphia. They will have a copy of the Naturalization certificate you're looking for. They sent me my grand-father's Naturalization certificate in ten days.
Immigrant children, even today, receive their citizenship from their parents. Starting in 1790, children recieved derivative citizenship from their father (or mother in some cases). Derivative citizenship is defined as getting one's citizenship from another person. When the child's father became naturalized, his children under 16 (or 18, depending on the year) automatically became citizens. No paperwork was created. To prove his or her citizenship, the child would need his or her father's certificate of citizenship (or certificate of naturalization)........
Yeah! Exactly. And this is why the consulate told me the grand-father, even if not married, was NOT a minor at 19. Again, do not rely on individual states interpretation of age of majority. It's a Federal matter.
The case I'm working on now is for my fiancee's grand-father, but I obtained my own recognition in 2001 through the Philly consulate. You do not have to wait three months for your documents. Just google or call the Mid-Atlantic Regional Archives in Philadelphia. They will have a copy of the Naturalization certificate you're looking for. They sent me my grand-father's Naturalization certificate in ten days.
Re: Wish I had a time machine... dual citizenship roadblock!
It seems clear that your gf considered himself to be a US citizen and that he was able to prove it or he would not have been able to vote. Since you know for a fact that he was born in Italy, he either derived his citizenship from his father's naturalization or from his own naturalization.
The information regarding children on the family search site is incomplete. This is a better source since it comes directly from the US government (NARA). Keep in mind too that the age of majority in Italy at that time was also 21.
http://www.archives.gov/research/natura ... ation.html
An excerpt is here:
"The first major exception was that "derivative" citizenship was granted to wives and minor children of naturalized men. From 1790 to 1922, wives of naturalized men automatically became citizens. This also meant that an alien woman who married a U.S. citizen automatically became a citizen. (Conversely, an American woman who married an alien lost her U.S. citizenship, even if she never left the United States.) From 1790 to 1940, children under the age of 21 automatically became naturalized citizens upon the naturalization of their father. Unfortunately, however, names and biographical information about wives and children are rarely included in declarations or petitions filed before September 1906. For more information about women in naturalization records"
HOWEVER, if you can somehow prove, as did jennabet, that your gf was an "emancipated minor" you may well be able to get around this.
It does not hurt to check with your consulate, but keep in mind that their verbal and written assurances are not binding. I discovered that the hard way. At a pre-conference I was given information that completely changed when I met with the same individual two months later to present my documents. Be prepared for anything.
The information regarding children on the family search site is incomplete. This is a better source since it comes directly from the US government (NARA). Keep in mind too that the age of majority in Italy at that time was also 21.
http://www.archives.gov/research/natura ... ation.html
An excerpt is here:
"The first major exception was that "derivative" citizenship was granted to wives and minor children of naturalized men. From 1790 to 1922, wives of naturalized men automatically became citizens. This also meant that an alien woman who married a U.S. citizen automatically became a citizen. (Conversely, an American woman who married an alien lost her U.S. citizenship, even if she never left the United States.) From 1790 to 1940, children under the age of 21 automatically became naturalized citizens upon the naturalization of their father. Unfortunately, however, names and biographical information about wives and children are rarely included in declarations or petitions filed before September 1906. For more information about women in naturalization records"
HOWEVER, if you can somehow prove, as did jennabet, that your gf was an "emancipated minor" you may well be able to get around this.
It does not hurt to check with your consulate, but keep in mind that their verbal and written assurances are not binding. I discovered that the hard way. At a pre-conference I was given information that completely changed when I met with the same individual two months later to present my documents. Be prepared for anything.
Re: Wish I had a time machine... dual citizenship roadblock!
cgiulia doesn't have to get around it. Consulate says at age 19, he was not a minor, married or not. Italian consulate decides whom it recognizes as Italian citizens and not the USA. Age of majority in Italy at the time also has nothing to do with it as apparently, it did not pertain to immigration matters.
Re: Wish I had a time machine... dual citizenship roadblock!
Don't ever assume that what your consulate tells you verbally or in writing is binding. I found that out myself the hard way. The information you received was tentative in nature; when you go in with your papers, you may not receive the same response. I do think, however, that you're ok, because it's likely that marriage precluded derivative citizenship; that would make sense.
Keep in mind, too, that Italian citizenship law does not reference minority or majority status. The law is that if you naturalized before 1992 in another country, you lost your Italian citizenship. According to NARA, before 1940, minors under the age of 21 did indeed naturalize when their parents naturalized.
You are correct that the age of majority in Italy is not pertinent. Naturalization is naturalization whether it occurs at age 6 or age 60. However, had the age of majority in Italy been 18, one might present a credible argument that a 19 year old could not renounce his citizenship unless it was of his own volition (since he was an Italian citizen who had already reached his majority according to Italian law).
EDITED TO ADD: Actually, in some cases the age of majority is pertinent. Recent applicants from Australia point out a unique anomaly in their citizenship law that allows minors (above 16 years of age) to naturalize on their own behalf. The Australian consulates have said that if a 16 year old naturalized as a minor, it does not count as renunciation unless his/her parents naturalized as well. This seems to indicate that the age of majority is somewhat an issue although it is unclear whether the concern is the age of majority in Australia or in Italy.
Keep in mind, too, that Italian citizenship law does not reference minority or majority status. The law is that if you naturalized before 1992 in another country, you lost your Italian citizenship. According to NARA, before 1940, minors under the age of 21 did indeed naturalize when their parents naturalized.
You are correct that the age of majority in Italy is not pertinent. Naturalization is naturalization whether it occurs at age 6 or age 60. However, had the age of majority in Italy been 18, one might present a credible argument that a 19 year old could not renounce his citizenship unless it was of his own volition (since he was an Italian citizen who had already reached his majority according to Italian law).
EDITED TO ADD: Actually, in some cases the age of majority is pertinent. Recent applicants from Australia point out a unique anomaly in their citizenship law that allows minors (above 16 years of age) to naturalize on their own behalf. The Australian consulates have said that if a 16 year old naturalized as a minor, it does not count as renunciation unless his/her parents naturalized as well. This seems to indicate that the age of majority is somewhat an issue although it is unclear whether the concern is the age of majority in Australia or in Italy.
Re: Wish I had a time machine... dual citizenship roadblock!
.......According to NARA, before 1940, minors under the age of 21 did indeed naturalize when their parents naturalized........
A 19 year old may have been considered "naturalized" by the US government but Italy does not have to recognize this unless said 19 year old applied for his own naturalization.
Are you also implying that it's the idea of the USA that a 19 year old is liberated from being considered naturalized because he's married? Where would this information be written?
A 19 year old may have been considered "naturalized" by the US government but Italy does not have to recognize this unless said 19 year old applied for his own naturalization.
Are you also implying that it's the idea of the USA that a 19 year old is liberated from being considered naturalized because he's married? Where would this information be written?
Re: Wish I had a time machine... dual citizenship roadblock!
I am not implying anything of the sort, simply trying to interpret the position taken by the consular officer with whom you communicated who indicated that he believed that the 19-year old did not naturalize with his father. If he interprets marriage to preclude derivative naturalization, that is only his interpretation. There is nothing I find in US law to substantiate this. Nor do I find anything in Italian citizenship law to substantiate it.
As I stated earlier, it's not a good idea to accept verbal and written assurances as binding on the consulate particularly when it concerns an area that may be open to interpretation. I had a personal meeting with a consular officer two months preceding my actual application, and even though I met with the same gentleman, his interpretation was substantially different at my second meeting.
I understand your confidence in light of the letter you received, and I do believe you can make a solid argument that a married man was not bound by his father's decision no matter what his age. Is there a definitive law to back this up? Probably not, but it's a legitmate and solid argument.
The argument that an unmarried 19-year old, living with his parents and considered to be a minor by both the US and Italy, was not subject to the naturalization decision of his father is considerably more difficult to make.
You state: "A 19 year old may have been considered "naturalized" by the US government but Italy does not have to recognize this unless said 19 year old applied for his own naturalization."
This, however, is not the way the consulate in San Francisco interprets loss of citizenship. From their site: "Italian citizen at the time of the descendant’s birth" means that he/she did not acquire any other citizenship through naturalization, before the descendant’s birth." If this is the case, and I have no reason to believe it is not, the NARA explanation is certainly pertinent.
As I stated earlier, it's not a good idea to accept verbal and written assurances as binding on the consulate particularly when it concerns an area that may be open to interpretation. I had a personal meeting with a consular officer two months preceding my actual application, and even though I met with the same gentleman, his interpretation was substantially different at my second meeting.
I understand your confidence in light of the letter you received, and I do believe you can make a solid argument that a married man was not bound by his father's decision no matter what his age. Is there a definitive law to back this up? Probably not, but it's a legitmate and solid argument.
The argument that an unmarried 19-year old, living with his parents and considered to be a minor by both the US and Italy, was not subject to the naturalization decision of his father is considerably more difficult to make.
You state: "A 19 year old may have been considered "naturalized" by the US government but Italy does not have to recognize this unless said 19 year old applied for his own naturalization."
This, however, is not the way the consulate in San Francisco interprets loss of citizenship. From their site: "Italian citizen at the time of the descendant’s birth" means that he/she did not acquire any other citizenship through naturalization, before the descendant’s birth." If this is the case, and I have no reason to believe it is not, the NARA explanation is certainly pertinent.