Naturalized Through County Court

[williamsburger]

I do apologize for the number of posts recently, but I feel like I am on a roll!

My great-grandfather naturalized via the Queens County Court in 1927. Due to this, his records are stored with the county court, and not with NARA. I contacted the court, and they provided me with a copy of his naturalization documentation, plus a signed letter from the Queens County clerk that bears the Queens County seal. It does NOT, however, have that fancy red ribbon that the National Archives and Record Administration uses to bind their naturalization documents, and is not certified by anyone at the National Archives.

Is this sufficient, or do I need some kind of federal documentation of my great-grandfather's citizenship application? I contacted the USCIS (U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services) Genealogy Program, but all they were able to give me were low-quality photocopies of his documentation, which I already had in much better form from the Queens County Court.

Am I just being paranoid?

[johnnyonthespot]

In mid-2008, the NYC consulate accepted the Declaration, Petition, and Oath of Allegiance of my grandfather, documents issued by the Westchester County Archives and carrying the stamp, seal, and signature of the County Clerk.

Seems a close corollary to your situation.

[williamsburger]

Carmine, your knowledge on these matters never ceases to impress! I am heartened to hear that you were recently successful with this type of documentation, even as I am coming to understand that different consulates (I am applying in Newark) have different requirements that seem subject to rapid change. I will let everyone know how my documents are received, and hopefully I can help others as you've helped me!

[rgaetano]

I think you should be fine, I recently had county naturalization documents accepted at NY. They had the County Certification/stamp/signature, no fancy ribbons.

[sforza]

My father's GGF's naturalization record was from the New York County Superior Court. The reason that Consulates want letters from states and counties and not just the feds is that many people, particuarly those born before 1906, were naturalized in local courts. The red ribbon in itself means nothing vis-a-vis county documentation. Just make sure your local doc has the county (or state, as the case may be) stamp.

[KarenChristino]

Do we need to get Apostilles for the red ribbon (Federally certified) documents (I have a Census and draft registration from them) or are they OK as is?

[johnnyonthespot]

Apostilles are required only for those documents which will eventually be registered in Italy. Generally, these are birth, marriage, and divorce certificates for each person in the direct lineage.

Naturalization documents (and supporting stuff such as No Records Found letters & censuses) are used only by the consular official to determine eligibility and are not sent to Italy. As such, they do not require apostilles or translations (unless they are in a language other than English if presented to a US consulate).

[KarenChristino]

Thanks, Carmine -- that's what I thought.

[williamsburger]

Naturalization documents (and supporting stuff such as No Records Found letters & censuses) are used only by the consular official to determine eligibility and are not sent to Italy. As such, they do not require apostilles or translations (unless they are in a language other than English if presented to a US consulate).

Carmine, I had not realized that naturalization documents do not require translations -- is this always the case, or does this sort of thing also vary by jurisdiction/the whims of the official?

[grandpa77]

WOW!

I'm shocked they don't want naturalization documents apostilled or sent to Italy.

So what that tells me is that the consulate is the only Judge and Jury when it comes to getting Italian citizenship by decent?

Could that be true ?

[johnnyonthespot]

Carmine, I had not realized that naturalization documents do not require translations -- is this always the case, or does this sort of thing also vary by jurisdiction/the whims of the official?

It should always be the case. The naturalization documents are solely for the use of the consular official who, by Italian standards must be fluent in standard Italian plus in the language of the country in which the consulate is located. So long as the naturalization papers are in English and you are applying at a US consulate, no translation is required.

A year or so back when the consulates began using a pay-per-minute "Help" service, applicants were being told all sorts of crazy stuff like:

"Every document must be translated!"

"Yes, every document requires an apostille! Even translations!"

"Yes, every apostille must be translated!"

This is all patently ridiculous. If you translate an apostille, then apostille the translation, ... then what? Translate the new apostille? And apostille the new translation?

[johnnyonthespot]

WOW!

I'm shocked they don't want naturalization documents apostilled or sent to Italy.

So what that tells me is that the consulate is the only Judge and Jury when it comes to getting Italian citizenship by decent?

Could that be true ?

This is absolutely correct. Jure sanguinis cases are decided by the consulate's resident citizenship officer. If he/she determines that you have provided sufficient evidence to prove an unbroken line of Italian blood, he "recognizes" your Italian citizenship and forwards the translated & apostilled birth/marriage/death certificates of the applicant and his direct-line ancestors to the ancestral comune for registration.

Other types of citizenship, such as jure matrimonio (citizenship through marriage) and naturalization are decided in Rome. In these cases, the consulate's job is to receive the application, assure that all basic requirements have been met and that paperwork is in order, and then forward the entire package to Rome. Rome then has a full two years in most cases to render a decision.