documents requested re: 1st marriage

[rynato]

This is regarding registering my current US marriage in Italy. In November 2017 I submitted to my consulate the following documents regarding my first marriage (after unwisely reporting previously that I had a previous marriage):

• marriage certificate (1994)

• divorce decree (1995)

• "affidavit of no appeal" from the county clerk

• translations and apostilles for all of the above

Fast forward to today (late January 2018): Now I am being asked for additional documentation. I wish the person had asked for this to begin with, in fact I feel like the last two items are just being made up.

• trascrizione di matrimonio regarding first marriage

• second marriage certificate (2014) should be in the same format as the first (plus apostille and translation)

• copy of birth certificate of the wives (no apostille, no translation)

Both of my marriages were in the same county; of course, the form changed in appearance between 1994 and 2014. I do not understand what this person is asking for, nor why. The official, certified copy is the official record. Nevertheless, I inquired about this and was told (as I expected to hear) by a supervisor at the county clerk of the court's office that this request was not possible to fill. Am I misunderstanding the request? Is this "normal" to ask for this regarding a previous spouse?

As for the birth certificate, for my current wife that's no problem. For my first wife... the state of her birth, it appears, will not release it to me just because I am an ex-spouse. Once again, I inquired anyway and was told no, I did not have the right to request a birth certificate for an ex-spouse for the purpose at hand. I could ask my first wife (if I can find her... it's been 20 years since we last had contact), but we're divorced for a reason and I highly doubt she would wish to cooperate with a request to obtain her birth certificate to help out my current wife. I also don't understand what it matters, the divorce of my first marriage is final, why do they need her birth certificate? Che c'entra????

Does anybody out there know if these requests are "ordinary" and "normal" for this situation? Any advice on how to deal with these unreasonable requests? I already have a Plan B (get married in Italy) and a Plan C (go to my comune and submit the paperwork there), but I really do not want to throw away the money and effort put into it so far.

Thanks in advance!

[mler]

From my perspective, you’ve give them all they need to prove your first marriage legally ended before your second marriage began, but my perspective means nothing. They apparently want to complete your family record in its entirely and are asking for more than they logically need. Ultimately, they make the decision.

If you do get married again in Italy, you may be asked again for the documents you can’t deliver. Then again, comuni are sometimes more flexible than are consulates. Perhaps on a trip to Italy, you can register your marriage documents with them directly.

Failing that, your best bet, it think, is to contact an attorney. It may be a bit more costly for you. but should save you some grief.

[jennabet]

Yes, these are unreasonable requests. If you didn't have any children with wife number one to whom you were only married one year and that marriage took place after 1983, you did not have to give the consulate any information whatsoever regarding this marriage and divorce. It also makes perfect sense that the state where your first wife was born won't give you her birth certificate -- apparently also realizing that you have no right to it since this marriage was practically non existent and didn't produce any children so you don't have any relation to her at all. People should use common sense when dealing with consulates instead of taking as gospel everything they read provided by the "experts" about being recognized as an Italian citizen.

[mler]

As both you and jennebet have noted, you could have easily avoided mention of your first marriage. However, now that the consulate is aware of it, they want all the relative paperwork.

You can’t unreport what has already been reported, but the divorce decree and “no contest” documents are definitely sufficient. You may have simply encountered someone at the consulate who misunderstood requirements or simply had a bad day. It might be worth your while to confirm these requirements with the consulate, preferably with someone else who is more knowledgeable.

Ultimately, however, if they insist and refuse to process your application without these additions and changes, your only alternative is to go the comune route or seek the services of an attorney.

It’s unfortunate when consulates occasionally overstep their authority and demand documentation that is not legally or logically required. Fortunately, you have several good alternatives if the consulate refuses to reconsider.

BTW, requiring that the certificate for the second marriage be in the exact same format as the first marriage certificate is totally ridiculous. A legal certificate is a legal certificate so matter what it’s format.

[mler]

Ok, I just reread your post and noted that you are already an Italian citizen. If you are a citizen simply trying to register your current marriage, the position of the consulate is even more outrageous.

Definitely, make an appointment to see a consular representative in person. You are an Italian citizen and have every right to insist that your legal marriage be registered.

[rynato]

Several months later, in case anybody is interested or in case someone else finds themselves in a similar situation.

I decided that it made sense to show the consular official that I attempted to fulfill her requests and hope that she was satisfied with that. That seems to have turned out to be a good strategy. I obtained an email from a supervisor in the office that deals with birth records in the state where my ex-wife was born and provided that to the consulate. I also obtained a response from a supervisor in the county clerk of the court's office re: the request for the first marriage certificate to match the form of the second; the request stated no, we can't do that, the official record is what it is (paraphrased).

She went ahead and sent on the paperwork to my comune (Firenze). I am a bit unclear as to what the comune's role is; will they just file the paperwork and grant the atto (IOW I can take it for granted this process is nearly done, since the consular official sent on the paperwork it must be complete), or will they scrutinize all of this as well.

I was told on another forum to wait 90 days then ask for the atto from the comune, 90 days should be sufficient for them to process the paperwork. I will also ask the consular official if I will receive any notification that the process is completed on the comune's end, though I don't have much faith in whatever answer I may be given. (That is if she says yes you'll be notified... will that actually happen?)

[rynato]

Several months later, in case anybody is interested or in case someone else finds themselves in a similar situation:

I decided that it made sense to show the consular official that I attempted to fulfill her (ridiculous) requests and hope that she was satisfied that I had made a good faith effort to follow through. It just never seems like a good idea to me, to challenge too strongly an Italian bureaucrat's requests.

That seems to have turned out to be a good strategy. I obtained an email denying my request from a supervisor in the office that deals with birth records in the state where my ex-wife was born and provided that to the consulate. I also obtained a response from a supervisor in the county clerk of the court's office re: the request for the first marriage certificate to match the form of the second; the request stated no, we can't do that, the official record is what it is (paraphrased).

The consular official went ahead and sent on the paperwork to my comune (Firenze). I am a bit unclear as to what the comune's role is; will they just file the paperwork and grant the atto (IOW I can take it for granted this process is nearly done, since the consular official sent on the paperwork it must be complete), or will they scrutinize all of this as well.

I was told on another forum to wait 90 days then ask for the atto from the comune, 90 days should be sufficient for them to process the paperwork. I will also ask the consular official if I will receive any notification that the process is completed on the comune's end, though I don't have much faith in whatever answer I may be given. (That is if she says yes you'll be notified... will that actually happen?)