Noble Mystery, GGrandmother--who were you???

[VickiSalvoni]

From her death certificate, Clementina's maiden name was Desunide Petrini. I wish I could look up marriage information from Italy online!

Vicki

[suanj]

duplicate reply.. sorry...
bye, suanj

[suanj]

Hi Vicki,
I found this data, until this moment:
First trip:
New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957
about Daniele Gini
Daniele Gini ( in travel with Eugenio GINI age 37 passport of sep 1912 http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/3712 ... ni1qg9.jpg )
4 Apr 1887
abt 1863
24
Male Le Havre, France
United States of America
Italy
Italian
La Gascogne
View the La Gascogne in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database

New York
41
M237
M237_505
351
New York
United States



Second trip:
New York Passenger Lists, 1820-1957
about Damele Gini
Damele Gini
[Daniele Gini] in travel with Clementina wife, and children: Livia, Negria, Francesco( all family US citizens)
30 Sep 1905
abt 1863
42
Male Havre
Italian (North) (Italian)
La Lorraine
View the La Lorraine in the 'Passenger Ships and Images' database

New York, New York
23
T715
T715_626
143
[hr]


1900 United States Federal Census
about Daniel Ginie
Name: Daniel Ginie
[Daniele Gini]

Home in 1900: Chicago Ward 16, Cook, Illinois
Age: 36

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1864
Birthplace: Italy
Relationship to head-of-house: Head
Spouse's Name: Clementina
Race: White
Occupation:
Immigration Year: 1883
Neighbors: View others on page

Household Members: Name Age
Daniel Ginie imm. Year 1883(??)
36
Clementina Ginie Imm. year 1895
35
Lily Ginie
3
Mary Ann Ginie
1

[hr]

1920 United States Federal Census
about Daniel Givi
Name: Daniel Givi
[Daniel Gini]

Home in 1920: San Francisco Assembly District 29, San Francisco, California
Age: 55 years
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1865
Birthplace: Italy
Relation to Head of House: Head
Spouse's Name: Clementina
Father's Birth Place: Italy
Mother's Birth Place: Italy
Marital Status: Married
Race: White
Sex: Male
Home owned: Rent
Year of Immigration: 1890
Able to read: Yes
Able to Write: Yes
Image: 772
Neighbors: View others on page

Household Members: Name Age
Daniel Givi imm 1890 ; naturalization 1895
55
Clementina Givi imm 1898(??) naturalization 1895
54
Lillie Givi
22
Frank Givi
17
---------------------------
marriage record:
Illinois Statewide Marriage Index, 1763–1900
GINI, DANIEL LENCI, CLEMENTINA 08/21/1895 / 236825 COOK
--------------------------------------------------------
also this Gini married in Cook, ILL:
GINI, EUGINIO CORASSA, CAROLINA 02/12/1882 / 00059693 COOK
GINI, FRED MARTINELLI, IDA 01/31/1901 / 320960 COOK

and after 1900 a Assunta Gini ( born in Chicago 27 aug 1886) married at Angelo CURIELLI; this Assunta is no the Assunta belove on death's list; but is another and I believe that maybe was in some way related.... it was many Gini people in Chicago... and I believe that they was in some way all related.... [hr]

Illinois Statewide Death Index, Pre–1916

GINI, ASSUNTA 12/25/1909 CHICAGO 58 YR U 00005947 COOK
GINI, ELZELIO 03/24/1915 CHICAGO 03 MO U 00006599 COOK
GINI, IRENE 04/05/1912 CHICAGO 01 YR U 00016243 COOK
GINI, MATILDA 09/28/1901 CHICAGO 08 MO U 00006457 COOK

Illinois Statewide Death Index, 1916–1950

GINI LAZZARO M/W UNK 6012784 1924-05-07 COOK CHICAGO 24-05-08
GINIE FRED M/W UNK 0080098 1933-06-23 CARROLL SAVANNA 33-06-24
GINIE IDA MARTINELL F/W Y-55 0037884 1935-10-29 CARROLL SAVANNA - -
GINIE LOUISA F/W UNK 6005839 1938-02-25 COOK CHICAGO 38-02-26
GINIE SETTIMO M/W UNK 0035017 1943-12-10 COOK CHICAGO -
[hr]
regards, suanj

[Aether]

Suanj,
I am quite new at this forum, and admire the great effort done to answer so many requests.
I am a researcher in the fields of history and heraldry and must say really baffled by the number of writers concerned about noble ancestry.
I am concerned about data that eventually enters Wiki, and is also co-listed in the internet without any valid documentation!
In addition coat of arms are accepted, by families, not from Collegio Araldico, but from "commercial shops". Old letters are presented as proof of nobility and descent, and are considered by the family, even when rejected as NOT valid by a proper ARCHIVIO!.
If concerned about noble ancestry why not write to the proper offices of
Collegio Araldico? not only in Italy but in other countries.
Aether

[VickiSalvoni]

The reason people come here is because we don't know where to write! We're amateurs, just normal people who want to find our families. For me, I care about nobility for one reason: they don't keep records of peasants the way they keep records of the wealthy and titled. With a noble ancestor, it means there might be hope of making a connection to someone still living. There might be a story we can find to explain why we are here in this country and what happened to make our ancestors leave Italy. Peasants (and I consider myself one regardless of ancestry) rarely have family history books. Many who came to America were angry and bitter about their situation, and they turned their backs on family, friends, and country. My grandfather FORBID anyone in his house to speak Italian or to attend Catholic church. He died before I was born. He never returned to Italy, never saw his mother again. My ggrandmother left her family and friends and was disowned. I don't know all the pieces, but it is part of the reason why I am here in this country without a family on my Italian side. Do you have any idea how sad it is to find a cousin at age 50 that you might never have known without Ancestry.com? All because one of your ancestors decided to cut ties??? It makes us feel like orphans! The next time you go to a family dinner and look at all of the loving faces around that table, imagine what it is like to have half of your family GONE because they don't even know you're alive!

Vicki

RM-you know this is not directed at you. I think you are a saint.

[Aether]

VickiSalvoni,

I do understand your reasons for finding other members of your extended family, we all wish to know more about our ancestry.

My point is that when one's major concern is to find a noble ancestor a short root to follow is to consult sources such the Collegio Araldico, Istituto Araldico Genealogico Italiano, the Libro D'oro della Nobilta Italiana etc.

A search by name of a noble family, for instance in the Libro d'oro...it will list the family history, location of its various members, dates , marriages and issue.

Once this is done, with a positive, or negative result one is in a way
free to continue a genealogical research with the very efficient help of members of the Forum, if so chooses.

This is the way I would look at a research of my family, avoiding trails leaving nowhere because of a old family story...causing confusion...

I read very carefully the letter you have in your web site, as I suppose you must have done. Also, I saw your coat of arms, quartered, and the Salvoni's family motto. A coat of arms really can be read...

I am very interested in heraldry, may I ask if you obtained your coat of arms from the Istituto Araldico Genealogico? How long it had been in the family?

Please, forgive all my questions. I am really fascinated by this subject, and never pass the opportunity of learning more...

Best luck with your research!

Aether

[suanj]

Suanj,
I am quite new at this forum, and admire the great effort done to answer so many requests.
I am a researcher in the fields of history and heraldry and must say really baffled by the number of writers concerned about noble ancestry.
I am concerned about data that eventually enters Wiki, and is also co-listed in the internet without any valid documentation!
In addition coat of arms are accepted, by families, not from Collegio Araldico, but from "commercial shops". Old letters are presented as proof of nobility and descent, and are considered by the family, even when rejected as NOT valid by a proper ARCHIVIO!.
If concerned about noble ancestry why not write to the proper offices of
Collegio Araldico? not only in Italy but in other countries.
Aether

Hi Aether,
in first time thinking that the infos abt Clementina's nobility was sure, but after the other replies, now I don't know; because if the surname of Clementina was Lenci ( as father), and the mother maiden name was Petrini, now Desunide Petrini.. I don't understand... also abt nobility... I know that the concept of nobility is different for italian descendents , because also some rich bourgeois family become by rumor family in USA as "noble family"... no.... in Italy concept is different.... the nobility is the nobility and the rich bourgeoisie is another thing.... so this part of search, abt nobility I don't make, because no helpful without a proof..
I agree with you abt as to search in Italy for noble families, I know it...
so I helped only for what could be found on line... abt the family in USA and emigration... for other infos without sure data I cannot help... best regards, suanj

[Aether]

Suanj,

The fact that Web sites are posted without complete documentation, and without any sort of disclaimers creates a lot of problems for researchers.

Even when the documentation as presented refutes their claim it is posted as validation!

And, not to mention the cavalier use of Coat of Arms! Quartered!

What concerns me is it seems that is creating a trend- lets find a noble ancestor!

It just makes more difficult the serious work done at the Forum, all those imagined, or embellished stories! Trails leading nowhere! Time and effort wasted!

I always enjoy your organized information! COURAGE!

Aether

[suanj]

Suanj,

The fact that Web sites are posted without complete documentation, and without any sort of disclaimers creates a lot of problems for researchers.

Even when the documentation as presented refutes their claim it is posted as validation!

And, not to mention the cavalier use of Coat of Arms! Quartered!

What concerns me is it seems that is creating a trend- lets find a noble ancestor!

It just makes more difficult the serious work done at the Forum, all those imagined, or embellished stories! Trails leading nowhere! Time and effort wasted!

I always enjoy your organized information! COURAGE!

Aether

oh yes in some web sites is so as you say... but in any case a good researcher know that after first input of search in websites, the same record must be in other documents....
In Italy we know who are the noble families, sometime the peoples understand as noble the simply "Don" title given from the peoples a some rich person in the village... but is not a noble title, but ,just, a shape of respect... the nobility documents are in many heraldy archives and however the documents abt a noble family must be also in other true sources... and this can confirm it without errors that is the right family, the right title... and normally a noble family already have own genealogic tree with all members, so no problem...
best regards, suanj

[VickiKent56]

This is Vicki Salvoni Kent from the origination of this thread. It has been a long time since I visited the site! I have found my Lenci family, or actually, they found me on ancestry.com. Suanj, the information you found in the recorded will about the Lenci family was correct. We are now starting to share photos, and I'm seeing faces of lost family. I have also found many more Salvoni cousins as well. The history they weave of Lucca to San Francisco is so wonderful it could be a movie. I want to visit Lucca in October of 2016 to visit some of my cugini. Thank you all for your help and encouragement.

[VickiKent56]

This is Vicki Salvoni Kent again. I have made contact with my Gini cousins as well as my Lenci cousins thanks to Ancestry.com. It is a wonderful thing!

[suanj]

This is Vicki Salvoni Kent from the origination of this thread. It has been a long time since I visited the site! I have found my Lenci family, or actually, they found me on ancestry.com. Suanj, the information you found in the recorded will about the Lenci family was correct. We are now starting to share photos, and I'm seeing faces of lost family. I have also found many more Salvoni cousins as well. The history they weave of Lucca to San Francisco is so wonderful it could be a movie. I want to visit Lucca in October of 2016 to visit some of my cugini. Thank you all for your help and encouragement.

I am very happy to help you!!
Thanks abt updates
Best,
suanj

[VickiKent56]

Hi, SuanJ. Just checking in after so many years. I have found out that the Lenci line is still on Via Vecchia Pesciatina in Lucca just outside the walls. My Salvoni family is on the same street. My grandparents met in San Francisco and found that their families lived only a few miles apart and they had many family connections and friends.

Tomasso Lenci was the banker you told me about all those years ago. The family was tied to the Medici because of the banking ties, but I have only family stories and no proof (not that it matters). I found my Lenci cousin in Sacramento, I have been to visit him, and we are now life-long friends. Thank you so much for helping me with this. I would NEVER have found my family if you hadn't given me the encouragement to keep looking.

I have found records now that show where the Lenci family lived in San Francisco, only 2 streets away from my school at Saints Peter and Paul. I could have been sitting right next to them and not known. It was their family church, where weddings and baptisms and funerals were held, and I didn't even know their names.

I never cared about nobility or anything like that. I just wanted to see if they were noble or important, maybe there would be a record I could find so I could find my living cousins. Thanks to you, that is what I did.

May the heavens bless you and those who also do this work!

Vicki Salvoni Kent, now age 64

[suanj]

Great! Happy to help you!
suanj

[VickiKent56]

After many years and making some discoveries, the question I have is who were the parents of Clementina Lenci, born in San Vito just outside the walls of Lucca, Tuscany, 15 April 1861? Records in the US show different names from marriage to birth to government pension requests. I don't know if she became confused with age, or if she hated her parents so much that she lied about their names. Also in my research, I found that her father was a banker and somehow the Lenci family of Lucca was tied to the Medici banking empire...which explains the wealth and the mistake of thinking it was due to minor nobility. Suanj found an old will that showed sizeable fortunes, but they disowned my great grandmother for marrying without permission to someone who was "unworthy" of her. I have also found out about genetic mental health issues within the Lenci line that have impacted some distant cousins. We haven't been able to figure out how we are related, because of the way my great grandmother mixed up the names of her parents in various documents. I have a child who suffers from mental illness and I'm the only caregiver, so I have not been able to go to Italy (which breaks my heart). If there is somewhere I could look for her birth records, I would be very grateful.