no birth certificate, alternatives? only scans of archive documents are available.

[dannyjosa]

Dear all ,

This forum has been very helpful. I have one final request! I have my appointment in 2 weeks, but no sign of an ancestor's birth certificate.

My ancestor was born in 1851, before Rome kept birth certificates, so I need alternate documents. Please could you comment on the items explained below, and do you think scans will be enough or should I get true copies? Because of covid etc, I won't have any time to get phsyical certified copies, so I need something to take to the appointment.

1. Military record:
I have a scan of a copy of the military leva, which states that he was born in 1851 but doesn't give the exact name as on his other documents (e.g marriage certificate).

Page1:
https://prnt.sc/vvq4xv
Page2:
https://prnt.sc/vvq5af

2.Baptism:
I have an acknowledgement from the Vatican where he was baptised (St. Peter's), the fax they sent tells me that they have a record but don't want to share it.

Do you think these documents will be enough? Do you think scans are sufficient as proof?

Thanks for the advice!!!Best, Danny

[suanj]

A baptism certificate with a visa from the Curia is sufficient, not just with parish priest signature who issues it, but a visa (stamp and signature) but VISA from the Episcopal Curia is also required.

I did not understand what is written in the fax.

But if you make a FORMAL request to the parish priest, attaching your identity document, and writing explicitly that the baptismal certificate of your ancestor you need to apply for Italian citizenship, and also request the amount of the expenses, and how to send the money, preferably by bank transfer, they must issue the baptism certificate, IN REPLACEMENT OF THE BIRTH RECORD which cannot be found. That by Lateran pacts between the Vatican and the Italian government.
suanj

[bbivona]

Do you know when and where he married? Rome has marriage allegati online through antenati for all the years after 1870. The marriage allegati could contain an extract of his birth or baptism record.
http://dl.antenati.san.beniculturali.it ... +allegati/

[dannyjosa]

Thanks! He married in British Guiana so no luck there.

The fax from the Vatican says ‘we have his records but don’t wish to share with you because they are in bad condition and..moreover your ancestor “abandoned the Catholic religion “! I have asked again but no luck yet.

Do you think the Consul would accept scans and let me send the documents in later, I may have a long fight to get them from the Vatican. I also have the military scans as linked above.

Thanks all

[suanj]

But the baptism certificate is no purpose the religion but to purpose italian citizenship application.. hire a lawyer.. if on the baptism record are readable name, place, baptism date and parents names the other words are no essentials and the priest can relay.. but explain that is no religious matter
suanj

[dannyjosa]

Without the baptism record, how useful will the Leva be?

[suanj]

Ask in the italian consulate.

[dannyjosa]

I solved this by visiting the Vatican parish office. They were very helpful there, they weren't able to help by email/phone or via the 3 assistants I hired. Sometimes things are best done in person!