Hello,
I have a good one for everyone. The link below is to the Antenati web site and the Marineo marriage of Paolino Arnone and Cira Greco from Sept 1856 where his father is Francesco Arnone, his mother is unknown and Cira's parents are Antonio Greco and Antonia LoPiccolo. Base on the documents it looks like Paolino's birth year is about 1833. What's interesting is that Paolino's father Francesco married in 1835 to Grazia Profida eventhough Paolino's approximate birth year is 1833. The certificate looks to start on page 419 and goes all the way to page 436.
What's very confusing is, why so many ducuments? Some of my questions are below but in addition to them, is there any important information in any of the pages?
Page 419 - How can his mother be unknown when his father is is Francesco? I can see the father being unknown, but never the mother!
Page 421 - Looks like the birth for Anne Maria Greco where her parents are unknown. Who is she and does it mention if she is related to Cira Greco.
Page 422, 423 - Anything exciting that's in the hand written pages?
Page 424 - Why did they create a new birth certificate for Cira. This one was created when they got married in 1856 but she was born in 1836.
Page 426 - Looks like Paolino married Cira's sister Paola first?
Page 428 - Looks like the death for Diego Greco who is Cira's grandfather. Who is Giuseppa xxx and why would they list Cira's grandfather?
Page 430-432 - More hand written pages. Anything interesting here?
Page 433-434 - I see Paolino Arnone and Cira Greca mentioned but it also looks like it mentions the year 1651 and 1655! What is this document and why 1651 and 1655?
Page 436 - Looks like this is the last page?
https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12 ... 28/5YJaj4m
Thank you
Chris
Paolino Arnone and Cira Greco 1856 Marineo Marriage
Re: Paolino Arnone and Cira Greco 1856 Marineo Marriage
"Looks like the birth for Anne Maria Greco where her parents are unknown. Who is she and does it mention if she is related to Cira Greco"
p. 421 This is the act of birth of Paolino, son of unknown father and unknown mother; Anna Maria Greco, age 45, was the midwife. Date of birth was July 10, 1823. He was abandoned at the wheel.
p. 421 This is the act of birth of Paolino, son of unknown father and unknown mother; Anna Maria Greco, age 45, was the midwife. Date of birth was July 10, 1823. He was abandoned at the wheel.
Re: Paolino Arnone and Cira Greco 1856 Marineo Marriage
Page 422, 423 - Anything exciting that's in the hand written pages?
This is the act of recognition by Maestro* (title) Francesco Arnone, son of deceased Paolino (Arnone), of his son, now given the name of Paolino and the surname Arnone, who had been procreated outside of marriage. Francesco voluntarily appeared before a notary on March 12, 1856 and said that his son had been born on July 10, 1823 and that, as per the midwife, Anna Maria Greco, in the 1823 act, it was written that the infant, given only the name Paolino at the time, was born of unknown father and unknown mother. See the birth act of Paolino which appears on p.421.
This is the act of recognition by Maestro* (title) Francesco Arnone, son of deceased Paolino (Arnone), of his son, now given the name of Paolino and the surname Arnone, who had been procreated outside of marriage. Francesco voluntarily appeared before a notary on March 12, 1856 and said that his son had been born on July 10, 1823 and that, as per the midwife, Anna Maria Greco, in the 1823 act, it was written that the infant, given only the name Paolino at the time, was born of unknown father and unknown mother. See the birth act of Paolino which appears on p.421.
Re: Paolino Arnone and Cira Greco 1856 Marineo Marriage
Page 424 - Why did they create a new birth certificate for Cira. This one was created when they got married in 1856 but she was born in 1836
The birth record created in 1856 was an extract of the original act from 1836 (not the original 1836 birth record) and was created specifically for use as a supporting document for the 1856 marriage. Original records were never used for a marriage-only newly created handwritten copies called extracts. Also there were no xerox machines or photo copiers at that time. The issue with extracted copies though was that sometimes mistakes were made in the extracts.
The birth record created in 1856 was an extract of the original act from 1836 (not the original 1836 birth record) and was created specifically for use as a supporting document for the 1856 marriage. Original records were never used for a marriage-only newly created handwritten copies called extracts. Also there were no xerox machines or photo copiers at that time. The issue with extracted copies though was that sometimes mistakes were made in the extracts.
Re: Paolino Arnone and Cira Greco 1856 Marineo Marriage
Page 426 - Looks like Paolino married Cira's sister Paola first?
Yes- the death act of Paola Greco, the wife of Maestro* (*title) Paolino Arnone who died on May 10, 1855, at age 24. She was the daughter of deceased Antonino Greco and dec Domenica lo Piccolo.
Yes- the death act of Paola Greco, the wife of Maestro* (*title) Paolino Arnone who died on May 10, 1855, at age 24. She was the daughter of deceased Antonino Greco and dec Domenica lo Piccolo.
Re: Paolino Arnone and Cira Greco 1856 Marineo Marriage
Page 427 extract of death act of Antonino Greco, husband of Domenica lo Piccolo. died at age 50 on March 21, 1844 and was the son of deceased Diego Greco and deceased Paola Raineri (?)
Will try to do the rest of the documents sometime over the weekend, if no one does so first.
Erudita
Will try to do the rest of the documents sometime over the weekend, if no one does so first.
Erudita
Re: Paolino Arnone and Cira Greco 1856 Marineo Marriage
Page 428
The death act of Diego Greco, husband of Giuseppa Trentacosta. Died on June 5, 1824 at the age of 60. son of deceased Saverio Greco and deceased Francesca Navarra(?). Extracts of the death acts of grandparents were included as supporting documents for a marriage, if their names and places of death were known. Sometimes only the name of the grandparent is known, but the location of the death is stated to be unknown.
The death act of Diego Greco, husband of Giuseppa Trentacosta. Died on June 5, 1824 at the age of 60. son of deceased Saverio Greco and deceased Francesca Navarra(?). Extracts of the death acts of grandparents were included as supporting documents for a marriage, if their names and places of death were known. Sometimes only the name of the grandparent is known, but the location of the death is stated to be unknown.
Re: Paolino Arnone and Cira Greco 1856 Marineo Marriage
Page 429
Death of Domenica lo Piccolo, widow of Antonino Greco. age 45, daughter of deceased Vincenzo lo Piccolo and deceased Francesca lo Pinto. Oct 26, 1847.
Death of Domenica lo Piccolo, widow of Antonino Greco. age 45, daughter of deceased Vincenzo lo Piccolo and deceased Francesca lo Pinto. Oct 26, 1847.
Re: Paolino Arnone and Cira Greco 1856 Marineo Marriage
Pages 430-432
Dated Aug 31, 1856
Appearing was Giuseppe Greco, a 29 year older brother of the minor age prospective bride, Cira Greco. Because their parents and grandparents were deceased, there was a need for a family council proceeding comprised of individuals who would weigh the merits and shortcomings of the prospective spouse, and who would by majority vote, give or deny consent for the minor to marry. The individuals listed assisted with this matter. The relationship of the 5 named individuals, who with Cira’s brother, completed the council of six, is not given in the record. Normally they were relatives, close friends, or even neighbors. They voted to give consent to the marriage.
Dated Aug 31, 1856
Appearing was Giuseppe Greco, a 29 year older brother of the minor age prospective bride, Cira Greco. Because their parents and grandparents were deceased, there was a need for a family council proceeding comprised of individuals who would weigh the merits and shortcomings of the prospective spouse, and who would by majority vote, give or deny consent for the minor to marry. The individuals listed assisted with this matter. The relationship of the 5 named individuals, who with Cira’s brother, completed the council of six, is not given in the record. Normally they were relatives, close friends, or even neighbors. They voted to give consent to the marriage.
Re: Paolino Arnone and Cira Greco 1856 Marineo Marriage
Page 436 From Aug 3, 1856, a Sunday, notification of the upcoming marriage between Paolino and Cira was posted on the door of the town hall and remained there for 15 days. It resulted in no opposition to the upcoming marriage and with the couple intending to proceed, in the presence of town officials, with their solemn promise to celebrate their marriage before the church, and according to the format prescribed by the Sacred Council of Trent.
I have to leave now. Will get back to you with document I skipped concerning dispensation.
I have to leave now. Will get back to you with document I skipped concerning dispensation.
Re: Paolino Arnone and Cira Greco 1856 Marineo Marriage
Pages 433 and 434
This is a document produced by the procurator of the tribunal court of Palermo regarding the ecclesiastical or canonical dispensation which was granted to Paolino and Cira so that they could be united in matrimony. When Paolino had married Cira’s sister, a blood relationship was created between him and his sis in law, Cira. The law did not permit blood relatives up to the 4th degree to marry each other without a dispensation. The numbers 1651 and 1655 you see in the document are not dates. Rather they refer to correspondences. The #1655 specifically refers to the correspondence concerning the dispensation which was granted to the couple in the form of a papal brief which was dated on Jan 11, 1856 and executed in the kingdom on the 10th of Feb. So the couple, after that date, could be united in matrimony without any religious or civil impediments blocking them from doing so.
Hopefully I’ve explained this correctly.
Erudita
This is a document produced by the procurator of the tribunal court of Palermo regarding the ecclesiastical or canonical dispensation which was granted to Paolino and Cira so that they could be united in matrimony. When Paolino had married Cira’s sister, a blood relationship was created between him and his sis in law, Cira. The law did not permit blood relatives up to the 4th degree to marry each other without a dispensation. The numbers 1651 and 1655 you see in the document are not dates. Rather they refer to correspondences. The #1655 specifically refers to the correspondence concerning the dispensation which was granted to the couple in the form of a papal brief which was dated on Jan 11, 1856 and executed in the kingdom on the 10th of Feb. So the couple, after that date, could be united in matrimony without any religious or civil impediments blocking them from doing so.
Hopefully I’ve explained this correctly.
Erudita
Re: Paolino Arnone and Cira Greco 1856 Marineo Marriage
Erudita,
I don't know what to say except, THANK YOU. This is awesome information and would have taken me years to try and translate.
Chris
I don't know what to say except, THANK YOU. This is awesome information and would have taken me years to try and translate.
Chris
Re: Paolino Arnone and Cira Greco 1856 Marineo Marriage
So happy I was able to help you, Chris. You’re very welcome.
Erudita
Erudita
Re: Paolino Arnone and Cira Greco 1856 Marineo Marriage
Hello Erudita,
After reading through all the information again, I have more questions. May I ask additional questions.
It mentions Anna Maria Greco as the mid-wife. She is the one who assisted the unknown mother with the delivery of Paolino or was she the one taking care of Paolino as a baby/child?
Does it even mention where he lived, maybe an orphnage?
I'm assuming Francesco the father dropped offPaolino at the wheel, was that at a church, hospital, city hall...?
The birth of Paolino that was mentioned by his father Francesco and the mid-wife of July 10, 1823, I'm curious to know why that would not be in the birth index. I looked and did not find a Paolino where the parents are unknown.
From page 430-432 -
Are these the individuals responsible for the "family council"? If so did they mention any merits or shortcomings?
Francesco DiLorenzo paolino
Ciro DiLorenzo Paolino
Ciro LoPinto Giuseppe
Giovanni Bsttista DiLorenzo Giuseppe
Antonio ?? Pietro
Thank you
Chris
After reading through all the information again, I have more questions. May I ask additional questions.
It mentions Anna Maria Greco as the mid-wife. She is the one who assisted the unknown mother with the delivery of Paolino or was she the one taking care of Paolino as a baby/child?
Does it even mention where he lived, maybe an orphnage?
I'm assuming Francesco the father dropped offPaolino at the wheel, was that at a church, hospital, city hall...?
The birth of Paolino that was mentioned by his father Francesco and the mid-wife of July 10, 1823, I'm curious to know why that would not be in the birth index. I looked and did not find a Paolino where the parents are unknown.
From page 430-432 -
Are these the individuals responsible for the "family council"? If so did they mention any merits or shortcomings?
Francesco DiLorenzo paolino
Ciro DiLorenzo Paolino
Ciro LoPinto Giuseppe
Giovanni Bsttista DiLorenzo Giuseppe
Antonio ?? Pietro
Thank you
Chris
Re: Paolino Arnone and Cira Greco 1856 Marineo Marriage
cj11788 wrote: 15 Sep 2025, 16:41
The birth of Paolino that was mentioned by his father Francesco and the mid-wife of July 10, 1823, I'm curious to know why that would not be in the birth index. I looked and did not find a Paolino where the parents are unknown.
Hi,
It is present in the index as Esposito Paulino. #127 (same number of the act)
https://antenati.cultura.gov.it/ark:/12 ... 36/La8v2zJ
Esposito derives from "esposto" which in this case means abandoned.
Many foundlings were named that way in Southern Italy.